an imaginary new Nikon D5 FF camera by Photo.net.
This is a very wild rumor but if true it means Panasonic is really going into a new territory: Nikonrumors says the next Nikon D5 Full Frame camera will feature a 20 megapixel Full Frame sensor , have native(!) 102,400 ISO and 4K video recording. And his wild guess is that it’s made by the Panasonic owned Socionext company:
Socionext is a new company established by the consolidation of the system LSI businesses of Fujitsu Limited and Panasonic Corporation. It has a track record of development and delivery of products for various video applications. Socionext is now sampling 4K HEVC real-time encoder MB86M31. Together with MN2WS03101A, the company will support total video solution for a wide range of applications.
If true that means Panasonic has access to new Full Frame sensor tech. maybe it’s something they could use for a future “Macro Four Thirds” Full Frame system 🙂
P:S.: pdf file of Socionext newly announced sensor can be found here: socionext.com/en/pr/sn_pr20150527_01e.pdf
72 Responses
Well, I think that a sensor alone is not enough to make a camera. You need lenses too, for example. And I don’t know how much Panasonic is willing to invest in a new line up of lenses. But who knows?
I think there are enough choices if someone needs a “full frame” sensor camera, with Sony releasing a new camera every 6 month, just to say.
What I’d like to see is a great improvement in the m43 size sensor, a big leap in IQ while keeping the size of camera+lens smaller and lighter than the full frame competition.
Hmm. Panasonic could still try to fit an APS-C alike sensor within the 4/3 bajonett. The connection pins are a little bit “suboptimal”. But they could still make it like JVC (with the LS300 camcorder). For the standard 4/3 lenses the sensor crops automatically. And if you have APS-C or bigger lenses adapted, you can use the full sensor readout manually defined.
They could even bring out new native lenses which are APS-C compatible. The Sigma DN lenses would work (as they are already APS-C compatible). And if you check out the new Panasonic 42.5mm F1.7 (in the corners), it really looks like a lens which is covering already a WAY bigger sensor than Micro 4/3 ^^. Would also explain why Panasonic is a little bit defensive according new pro level lenses. The 12-35mm and 35-100mm lenses are quite old already. Maybe a solution for a future GH5 model …
Yeah, the PRO range from 7-14 and 100+ is really not covered by Panasonic in the same way Olympus does.
That is an interesting idea, and, likely could make purchasing sensors MUCH cheaper than having Sony, et al. fabricate m43 sensors–they could just use the available APS-C stock from Sony or Samsung. I think a 24MP APS-C sensor would crop down to around 18MP on m43’s. Plus, I think it would give you the option for full res different aspect ratios. It would also have the bonus that some lenses could actually take advantage of the APS-C sized sensor, though I don’t think I’d advertise that as it would be VERY confusing… more like a bonus that gets buried in the details on sites like this or dpreview for the gear heads like us, but not for the general public.
I agree. This makes more sense to me than discussing FF. Cameras here. It’s just silly nonsense.
We know that FF posts generate buzz..
… and hits.
Absolutely.
Small body and lens size is why I chose M4/3 over larger formats. So, if I WANT to use larger lenses on my 400g camera, I’m not hampered humping a 1kg body around.
As you say, if I WANT to use a bigger sensor, there are plenty of options out there. Sony’s A7-series being the most flexible in terms of lenses that can be used… AND size/weight.
The MN2WS03101A by Socionext is a processor – not a sensor! Thats what Nikonrumors is talking about. So this “rumor” is a bit too wild 😉
I hope they use this sensor technology for m4/3 version so the GH5 and the EM1 II will be beasts 🙂
> If true that means Panasonic has access to new Full Frame sensor tech.
May be. Or not. The companies like “Socionext” are often established specifically with the purpose of preventing the trade secrets of one company (Nikon) leaking to the competition (Fuji, Pana) while still using their manufacturing capabilities.
The bigger news (if rumor is true) is that Fuji/Pana sensor manufacturing just got another customer.
Let’s make one thing clear: once you have the ability to produce a photo diode and auxiliary electronics (photosite), you can pretty much scale that any way you want to. Some scaling makes no sense, some makes great sense.
Panasonic makes sensor. They can make them in pretty much any size from smartphone to medium format, probably even what we called in film large format. The only thing that might get in the way is the gate size on their fab. If the gate is smaller than 24×36 (and it probably is), then they have to learn how to “stitch” a sensor together instead of product it in one pass.
The problem for the m4/3 companies is this: they have no volume. The m4/3 camera market currently supports something around 1m sensors a year. That’s a pretty low number, and lower than Nikon’s DX camera production by a long shot. The lower the number produced, the greater the cost. A full frame sensor not only costs more because of the low yields, extra time, and extra silicon used, any Panasonic/Olympus full frame effort using their own sensor is going to be even lower volume than m4/3. By a wide margin. Thus, even costlier. And this is discounting any R&D that you have do to get the sensor into fab.
And then, as others pointed out, what Admin posted has nothing to do with image sensors at all ;~).
oh misleading, Fujitsu that is Fujitsu is not Fuji/Fujifilm.
Fujitsu is micro-electronic/semiconductor company. they interest imaging tech and co-produce new company called Socionext.
but Fujifilm co-produce organic image sensor with Panasonic.
MB86M31 is a video encoder chip.
MN2WS03101A is a video decoder chip.
They are image processors, not image sensors.
I briefly checked their website. It is the former LSI, well known for making al sorts of computer chips, but not image sensors.
What Mark says below, the rumor has nothing to do with image sensors.
Confusing a sensor with a processor is what happens when a 14 year old runs a web site.
14?!?
Sony is making great moves. This post may not actually be about sensors size, but I’d welcome a FF (or larger!) entry from Panasonic and Olympus *in addition to, not instead of* their M43 lineup. M43 is still a great high quality, high portability option. But it is reaching maturity. Unless a big sensor breakthrough is truly at hand, it may be time to branch out.
Instead of a bigger sensor I would prefer a more “exotic” m43 sensor offering a huge leap in IQ.
Competing against Sony would be quite difficult: I would let Sony release its models and look at people being never happy with their FF cameras becoming “obsolete” in less than a year.. 😉
Agreed, all that m4/3 needs is latest sensor tech, and it will nicely keep up with APS-C competition. Megapixel wars are raging, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see 24MP from the E-M1mk2. Personally I prefer 16MP or even 12MP, just give me more dynamic range and less noise. Maybe they could release two versions, one with more resolution and the other with more dynamic range, who knows.
Panasonic with SmartFSI or such and 4/3 would leap over FF.
Although I am not at all unhappy with the 16mpx sensor in my OM-D, I always wonder what may be on the horizon. Since Sony has a BSI full frame, and a “stacked” one-inch, I would expect the middle to fill in, both APS-c and FourThirds. Next year? Carbon technologies the year after? Who’s gonna use the new Sony 20mpx FourThirds first? E-M1 and LX100 follow-ons are a good guess.
Only time will tell, but as I have said several times, it’s not just a matter of sensor.
I have tried the a7 serie and I have never had fun with them: results are good (despite the compressed RAW files, which is ridiculous), but they lack of “soul”. Perhaps it’s just the lenses are too big than what I’d like them to be, and overall they feel cheap. Can’t say anything about the mark2 versions yet.
It’s useless to wait forthe perfect camera, what we have today should be used, that’s it.
Technology will advance for all systems, therefore I find useless to wait for the m43 system to reach the IQ of a bigger sensor system: both will improve.
M43 system has the advantage of size and weight, even when using the better, bigger and heavier lenses.
(the double dof is to me another advantage, but it’s a personal thing)
Hmm, lack of “soul”?
A7 series is the most innovative camera system in the last few years.
Currently, there is nothing better for that money. The camera have a modern design with 2015 features.
I don’t know which lenses have you used, but the overall impression for FE 35 1.4, Loxia, Batis, 90mm Macro is very good in my opinoion.
IQ is the best in 35mm (with D810)
Features are great.
If this camera system was made by Leica the price will be over 5000€
You don’t want a Leica Q then? 😉
I already own a Q 😉 The only thing in common with a Sony RX is the fixed lens on a full frame sensor.
Handling is much better, thanks to concave thum grip.
Construction is that of a Leica, it does not feel like a toy, it has the right weight.
EVF is the best available.
The lens is a beauty, it has IS if needed.
AF is fast, as on my Em5 mark2. Even in low ligh without af assistant light.
Manual focus is a pleasure.
Price is right for what you get.
And most important to me: it begs me to be used.
It could be a niche product, but in the Leica store I went, they sold three in 4 days. Mine was the fourth. And a fifth was awaiting his new owner.
Not bad, I’d say.
Marco, you have the best taste in gear, even if this means you’ve left the Ricoh GR club. We’ll miss you but totally understand!
I still own the RicohGR! Of course I’m using the Q, but my wife loves the Ricoh.
And I can’t sell the camera I had in my jacket the day I got married.. 🙂
I do not understand your need to talk bad about Sony.
The only company today that is trying to create something new, useful, worthy of 2015.
Leica is a status symbol, and the real price of this camera should not be greater than $ 2,500
But Leica anyway is not for true photo enthusiast, more for snobs. 😉
Best Regards
I’m not talking bad about Sony, I’m stating personal opinions and facts: personal opinions about the handling and “feeling” of Sony cameras, and facts about the rest, from the slow AF, no IS when taking stills, compressed RAW.
What was the price of an RX1r + EVF on release date? Not too far from that of a Q. Two years ago.
And it never felt right in my hands.
Two more things: you should try the Q, it could surprise you positively (perhaps the 28mm lens could not be the best for your style). Or read some good reviews (with pros and cons) such that of Ming Thein.
And some snobs chose Leica, but it’s not my case nor the case of other people who bought it.
You got the first sentence right. Anything else is your private wishlist and it will never come true, because:
1 – It’s a niche.
2 – Sony has got it covered and, even though they have a 5 year advantage (in both FF lens system and FF sensor design), they aren’t exactly swimming in the profits. (see 1)
3 – Building one camera has very little to do with building a system. M43 is a mature system today, but it took 7 years to get there, If you want to keep your expectations real, you should demand for a FF sensor fixed lens compact. That’s how Panasonic should test the waters before embarking on such a crazy adventure.
4 – Sensor breakthroughs aren’t all that rare, you have just seen two (see Olympus OM-D E-M5 II, or Sony’s announcements earlier this month)
5 – If you are really serious about this, then all you have to do is put your money where your mouth is: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7945517371/opinion-did-sony-just-do-the-impossible Go ahead! The cameras are there already and so is the glass.
1: niche today, mainstream tomorrow. FF is going to be the new normal very soon
2: It sounds to me like the new A7Rii is the first to really get it right — it can even auto focus legacy glass. But even that camera has lossy RAW, which is a turnoff for many, so I don’t think they have a lock
3: Agree completely. Starting with a fixed lens, then building the system out (as Fuji did with the X100 and Sony did in FF mirrorless with the RX1 proof of concept, then the A7) is a great way to go. Panasonic and/or Olympus should do exactly that. Start with a fast 35 or 40mm.
4: If the magical “organic sensor” from Panasonic-Fuji ever appears and lives up to the hype, my desire for a second FF system will be greatly lessened. But still we wait… Where’s @yun?
5: Great article. Thanks for the link. I’m definitely considering this camera. But having been bitten once by Sony, I’m cautious.
Is there a reason that fanboys keep wanting m43 companies barely surviving to branch out to FF in much riskier moves when FF is already well-covered and requires an entirely new lens lineup? I don’t get it… what’s so special about Panasonic/Olympus? m43 makes sense — it’s the most open of the lens mounts and in the goldilocks zone for sensor/lens size.
It seems that the people who fervently claim m43 as just-as-good as FF can’t shrug off their inherent belief that bigger is better.
If you read the comments you’ll see that most of readers here simply ask for a better IQ output (less noise, more DR) in a m43 sensor.
Technology goes on, there’s nothing bad in waiting for better performances: even FF sensors performances grow.
(And a great sensor is not so useful if not paired with a good lens, a good handling, a good eye)
*sigh* you are just FF fan believing lies.
Yes, because they’re FF fanboys NOT m43 fanboys, and are fountains of stupidity… :-b
“pdf file of Socionext newly announced sensor can be found here: socionext.com/en/pr/sn_pr20150527_01e.pdf”
Huh? Did you read it, even a few lines? It is a video decoder/transcoder, not a sensor at all.
He doesn’t even have to read it. There’s a picture of the device at the bottom of the first page of the two-page release he linked to, and that’s certainly not an image sensor.
If Panasonic were to make D5 sensor, it will be 24MP, just for a better 4K video scale down.
High speed read out will let the D5 churn out 12.5fps at full 14bit RAW.
made by Vericam 35 tm,that they up scale sensor size and optimize pixels.
The 4K frame is an 8mpx picture yes, in two different shapes, 4K Cinema and UHD-TV, both of which are crops on a 4:3 and 3:2 sensor. Somebody do the uncropping math. 4K TV is 3840 wide by 2160 tall. 4:3 would require a multiple of 11,059,200 and 3:2, a multiple of 9,830,400. The latter looks awfully close to half of 20mpx! Hmm. Obviously, current crop of 4K solutions are binning cleverly.
Why do you capitalize “full frame”? It’s not a proper name or a registered trademark.
Epic Fail…
LOL,ha ha ha ,how you read it.
http://www.socionext.com/en/pr/sn_pr20150527_01e.pdf
this new company from cooperate Fujitsu and Panasonic, they made Single-Chip/System-on-a-Chip (like microprocessor+graphic+audio+memory) for 4K/60p that is MN2WS03101A.
MN2WS03101A is image sensor integrate image signal processor on-die.
not the sensor, the image processor is made by Socionext
system on a chip ,nikon guy.
that you never see this,
i guess Fujitsu Company design signal processor and Panasonic design image sensor.
Hey if you’ve got a factory that produces camera sensors… produce some sensors 🙂
For God’s sake admin, don’t you know the difference between an image sensor and an image processor? As others have pointed out, that’s what this chip is – it has f*** all to do with full frame. Once again, this is a 4/3rds site – get over your stupid FF fanboyism or start another site devoted to it and hand this one over to someone who appreciates 4/3rds’ advantages over it.
It is not even a general imaging or application processor – just a video transcoder.
“a future “Macro Four Thirds” Full Frame system”
What does this mean? Jeez, I hate all the bashing on the admin to this site, but even after correcting “macro” to “micro”, that line is meaningless.
How about a future “APS-C Full Frame System”??
I guess he means 4/3 as the aspect ratio, not the sensor size. Or maybe 4/3 as being the Olympus-Panasonic alliance. It sort of makes sense; he’s just saying one or both of these might produce a 35mm-type sensor.
You are slow-witted aren’t you?
He was clearly joking… Didn’t you see the smiley?
Obviously it means: micro = small, macro = large… so “Macro Four Thirds” would mean a FF system made by m43 manufacturers…
Not that hard to guess….
I would agree that it is interesting press fodder to speculate on sensor and processor origins. Who makes what for who? It’s business. I get a bang out of deals between erstwhile enemies. Point is, we have a great number of powerful sensors and cameras running around. And the affordable optics have never been better. Shooters win. Where next?
This would corroborate the rumor that Panasonic made the Leica Q sensor. In that case the Leica Q is a test case for Panasonic’s upcoming full frame system. Looks like PanaLeica are going after Zony. Good for them.
Panasonic does not have capacity to make sensors anymore, its former factories were spun off more than a year ago.
I have been wondering if the Q was produced without any panasonic involvement. Not that it matters much. Just, well, whatever, fine. No earthquake or world war 3 or anything.
There might be some involvement, since the Leica Q can use the same batteries that power the Panasonic G7, and also the lens built into the Q has OIS which is not something Leica usually does
Bateries are also the same as on my dp2 and dp3 Quattro cameras..
When did Panasonic ever cooperate with Leica in any other form than:
a) Allowing Leica to rebadge Panasonic cameras, or
b) Paying Leica to use the Leica name for their lenses?
Jumping from badge engineering to actual cooperation in development is a big jump.
The Leica X Vario is a Panasonic-Leica collaboration.
It could be, but I haven’t seen any quotable source for this. And one would think that the X Vario is an evolution of the X2.
They could just build a FF body with the Nikon mount like Fuji did back in the day.
FF GH5!!!
Nikon lenses are not optimized to be used with CDAF nor they are for AF-C in movie mode…
Oops, just read that this is the image processor, not the sensor. Admin made a mistake.
Nevermind, carry on, nothing to see here….
It’s not that simple…
In any case you need lenses with stepper motor for video. Nikon lenses are just not good for continuous AF in movie mode.
It doesn’t really matter, the post is incorrect — Panasonic is not producing a FF sensor – so everything else is irrelevant. The Panasonic owned company that’s talked about in the post doesn’t make sensors, they make image processors, so the whole premise of the post is flawed. Its a post about nothing.
At least you gave Nikon executives a good laugh with this rumor….
As several already pointed out, Socionext’s chips are for image/video processing. The Panasonic next big move is probably based on its SmartFSI technology, to counter Sony’s BSI, as shown here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPec2EaBSSM
Don’t hold your breath for PANASONIC. They have had cutting edge technology for some time now. Until they get their head out of the sand expect to be let down again and again
Can you at least read their article before copy pasta-ing it with a ridiculously wrong headline?
Admin, you should take down this “rumor” article immediately: the original article on Nikon Rumors’ relation with Panasonic is about the image processor, nowhere does it mention a Panasonic image sensor. Seriously, this article looks very bad on your website.
Admin must be on his holidays.