Sony’s United States Patent Application 20130113982) describes a sensor with PDAF
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Last year Olympus and Sony signed a partnership that will soon show his first developments in the camera industry. According to trusted sources Olympus will get the new generations of Sony sensors with on sensor phase detection AF for a future high end OMD model. And Sony will use some of the knowledge from Olympus to design a couple of A-mount lenses that will be released in 2014. I think that’s a pretty good news for both companies. Sony sensors are the best on the market and the partnership allows Olympus to get the best from the best without having to stay in line (Nikon and Pentax use Sony sensors too). I am working on the specs of the next generation OMD and from the early bits I got (still unconfirmed) there may be some small surprise and new tech we never had before in Olympus cameras.
Stay tuned on 43rumors!
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85 Responses
We need a Zuiko 45mm 1.8 for NEX. 🙂
Oly is only helping Sony with A-mount lenses, Oly designed NEX lenses would cannibalize their own products
If Olympus stand for new 400mm F4 A mount-lens to Sony, but this lens design will be nice if Olympus scala half down to an 200mm F4 for M43.
New tech for Olympus beside on-chip PDAF? Hmmm… not many possibilities. Could be 14-bit RAW, multi-exposure processing (panoramas, HDR and so on) or enhanced video features. I can’t think of anything else.
I am sure the engineers can.
and – please – high bitrates.
For me it’s enough to buy OMD Pro.
Video should be fairly simple for Olympus to improve. They should probably borrow some technology from Sony. So close, but yet so far – even though most of the technology is already in their cameras. The still image quality is excellent as well as the steady IBIS. To improve video:
1) Better codec so the image doesn’t disintegrate when things start moving. True 720/60p and other framerates (50/25/24p) would be nice.
2) Magnification working in video mode to help manual focus
3) Focus peaking to work in video mode
4) Touch focusing to work in video mode
2/3/4) are already there for stills, at least in EP5. 1) shouldn’t be that hard to improve on as some more “basic” cameras made by other manufacturers already have better codecs.
If they get video right and improve on the C-AF then the EM-6 would sell even better than the EM-5.
Video needs to cover a bit more than just enough – all you said is good but what we need is also some highspeed usability… if the GO PRO can do it I bet there is plenty of power for the OMD to do it…
120fps/60fps/50fps/30fps/25fps/24fps 1920×1080 20Mbs/40Mbs/60Mbs
240fps/120fps/60fps/50fps/30fps/25fps/24fps 1280×720 20Mbs/40Mbs/60Mbs
That would be the last word in video untill 4k is needed!
Do it Olympus and the market will be yours!
Hmmm….
Terada and Ogawa said earkier this year that Oly have got several features in their sleeves that have got what it takes to suprise both usetrs and competion. Nobody expected the sensor cleaning before they introduced it – live view and swivel screen also were features they introduced in the DSLR market while the rest of the world claimed that you don’t need this ‘bull+++t in a DSLR, what about live bulb and the first properly working C-AF in an MILC.
I am convinced that they will be able to surprise us again – if they are willing to do so.
I agree. In the past Olympus introduced really useful new technologies. However, Admin used: “new tech we never had before in Olympus cameras”. This choice of words refers to technologies already used by others, which are quite few.
thats a way you can interprete it, but knowing Olympus they do many things different. I would still bet on something really new.
EVF in the top left corner 😉 ?
I have to disagree on this occasion. On the OMD range no. But I do like your suggestion for the top of range PEN. An item that should have been there from the start. Also to be lift up/tilt. This seems to be a jump to far for some and the end of the world for others.
Olympus would prob put it in another corner lol
😀
Maybe on the bottom right corner! Surely, olympus will be the first to do it! ^_^
That would be the ‘NEW’ & innovative left hand camera. 😉
Viewfinder location is the only thing keeping me from the OMD.
It needs to be top left for better ergonomics (for anyone using their right eye to shoot that is).
That is the location used for several decades worth of 35mm SLRs and DSLRs. Lots of people managed.
A camera with a top left evf are not really that usefull for us that are forced to use Our left eye….
maybe the electronic shutter from pana
Or global shutter? Apps? Integrated flash that can bounce? On the fly cropping, advanced version of digital teleconverter? Real time lapse mode ;)? “Zebra” MF assist? HDR? Panorama?
I am afraid that Olympus would cheap out and use on chip PDAF to give cursory phase detect AF to their 4/3 lenses to appease the owners of HG and SHG lenses. Then, on paper, they have done what they promised as I’m sure that these 4/3 owners are no longer profitable for the company. Olympus has a history of dropping faithful customers as soon as the going gets tough – OM, SM cards, XD cards, OM-AF etc. They haven’t made a new 4/3 lens in ages and the E-5 was a minimal upgrade probably to sell off stocks of 4/3 lenses. Should this PDAF on sensor be implemented (remember these small photosites don’t work in even half decent light) instead of a true all-inclusive phase detect system to appease existing 4/3 owners then I would be very cautious in spending mony on m43 – who knows when Oly will drop it? Panasonics core business isn’t photography either, they can easily leave the market too if the prognosis isn’t to their liking (they did leave 4/3 very quickly so the track record isn’t great). But for cheaper products the system is indeed good at present.
I spent years looking for my DSLR requirements to be filled. I found it with the E330. It had flip/adjustable screen, IBIS, live view and importantly did not take up the back seat of the car, or require 5 days a week training at the gym. It was just what I was looking for (still have it). The dpreview type sites slated it. They were so full of “who wants this crap on a real camera?” I remember it well. Try selling a DSLR without most of those features now.
Now, what next? GPS is missing. Remote control and pc/computer direct connect. Push button built in speed booster. I am sure there will be many realistic and also highly improbable suggestions presented in the forum.
Yes, the E-330 was a pleasure to use (although it had no IBIS). Beside all its innovative features I loved the colours it produced and its rather deep DR. It was also the only digital Olympus camera with a left corner viewfinder :). I replaced it with an E-510, but later reversed that move and acquired another copy which I used for three years. The E-330 was slow, noisy in low light, lacked any kind of stabilization, had no useful auto-ISO and its viewfinder was horrible. Yet I truly bonded with it. In the right conditions it was exquisite.
What??! No ibis?!
How did you ever take a photo?
You are, of course, quite correct re the IBIS, I seem to get it on the brain when I come here.
This is great news .
Does this mean we will see it in the incoming OMD ?
Hmm … Oly is getting better & better .
I think I need to work out a budget for this camera .
Yun!
Is this not patent so is for PDAF on NEX-6, and why come Olympus by OM-D in here ? 😛
Does it means one more year to see new OM-D generation ?
Pana GX2 is still not here too. We have to wait long long time for high end new cameras
True….but think of all the money we are saving and the time we have to make use of the GREAT cameras we already have! (Yes, I am trying to convince myself with that statement, as well. LOL!)
I returned to photography after model trains, high detail kits and layouts. Because it cost to much. I think maybe I should have tried breeding 6 legged chooks or restored old listed buildings. It would have been cheaper and less criticism. But, hey that’s life.
Trains? Are you a grown up? 🙂
And you are an idiot. There are many adults involved with the hobby of model trains.
Only when it comes to age restrictions on TV programs.
We just have to live in the past and save money that way (meaning to buy stuff that’s a year old)
I certainly enjoy music from the past composed by stravinsky. 😉
What’s the big advantage. Is it just so we can use legacy 4/3 lenses? How about some native m43 zooms instead?
On-chip PDAF should improve focus tracking of m4/3 lenses.
no sign from Pany,Last i know Pany plan to upgrade AF for Sport shooting,wedding ,racing ect.
How they do?
good if they develop new AF technical by their way,and soon they separate AF,lens for M4/3
that OK i hate this JOIN SYSTEM for a long time.
No one else’s on-chip PDAF really provides good focus tracking. Canon’s is garbage, Sony’s (on their flagship FF DSLR, no less) is so poor they still need a separate PD sensor to get focus tracking. Nikon’s, on the 1, relies heavily on the huge DOF of that tiny sensor.
For PDAF to work right the lens software has to be optimized for it. Don’t expect too much from this even if it does show up in an OMD some day.
Just have a look at the list across the top of the website. There are lots.
Therefore new OMD (in September 2013) will have new, better sensor with better IQ… Current AF in OMD is faster then in NEX. I hope will be better, not worse. PDAF should increase AF-C possibilities, maybe also increase of AF speed with old 4/3 lenses (but I don’t care, because micro43 needs small micro43 lenses, not hughe 14-35/2, 35-100/2 or 50-500/2.8-3.5).
I hope it will be a nice competition to the GH3 videowise. A BMCPCC/OMD hybrid :3
I really don’t see the need for on-sensor PDAF and hope it won’t happen. The C-AF of my E-M5 already is more reliable than the ones of my E-5/E-30 (admittedly with the bigger DOF area due to the slower lenses) and – as I already wrote in another thread – you only need to enhance the face and eye detection to silhouette detection and give the camera the calculation power that allows the AF system to use the changing size of the silhouette for predicting the direction and speed of your subject’s movement – and there you are: a C-AF that also can C-AF the FT lenses quickly like a PDAF as it can send the AF to the right point in one step.
An in consideration of the interviews of Terada and Ogawa earlier this year – when they said that on-sensor PDAF still is a possibility but highly unpopular at Olympus I don’t see it happening.
He said hopefully.
I don’t specialize in sports photography, but would like to be able to use solid, weather sealed lenses of high quality on a m4/3 camera. My favorite lens is the Zuiko 11-22 which is almost unusable on my E-M5 due to slow focusing. I don’t really care which solution Olympus (or Panasonic) come up with as long as it works. If on-sensor PDAF is the most feasible one, so be it.
What worries me a bit is the large battery required to move heavy focusing groups such as the one in the 50-200. The next OM-D will surely be larger than the E-M5, which might make it less desirable (and thus much more expensive).
think so too, just come with a solution to make the FT lenses work with decent speed. Olympus was never meant to be a speed demon for panning sports photography. Thats Nikon and Canon territory.
Just let me use my HG’s is all ask for.
I don’t like to use those 43 HG lenses too, but sometimes on certain occasion they come in handy especially those bright zooms 11-22 and 50-200. Until m43 comes out with these smaller weather-sealed bright zooms, these 43 HG lenses really come in handy.
The best Olympus can do, is an new E-x camera. 😉
I find 11-22 faster than 12-60 on EPM2. Unfortunately – because it would be much more convenient to use the 12-60 on EPM2. On the other hand, 12-60 seems to me to be faster when focusing by finger on the touch screen of the EPM2. Perhaps in this case the camera hunts only around the finger spot and not the whole focusing plane/distance. I also find 70-300 acceptably fast on EPM2 – which is a pity because 70-300 is difficult to handle with the miniscule grip on EPM2. I would rather have it the other way round, but that’s life. Strongly hope for a PDAF sensor on m43.
Please no pdaf on sensor. I thought everybody wanted sublime IQ, you can forhet that with pdaf on sensor.
They should just improve cdaf to handle caf predictions. I can’t imagine everybody wants to compromise IQ to just want to use FT-lenses.
Well I mentioned the same the other day: silouhette recognition gives the direction to old lenses, and so no need to spoil the sensor with ‘dead’ pixels for PDAF.
I assumed that this was delaying Oly. OTH Sony might have developed PDAF on sensor for its own ends.
Next question is: will Oly develop a specific camera for dual use with 4/3 and m4/3 lenses. Will it be the flagship? Or just another camera? A Tweener?
Because one way or the other 4/3 lenses obsolesce. Not having linear motors they will never be as fast as m4/3 lenses.
Therefore IMHO it will not be a replacement for the E-M5, but a special camera, possibly bigger. What is the timing for each?
How many pixels are actually used for PDAF in those new sensors? My guess is not more than 0.1% of the gross resolution (which would be around 16,000). If this estimate is even remotely correct then light absorption would essentially remain unchanged.
Well I am no specialist, but I remember reading that those PDAF on sensor are fairly imprecise, because the PDAF dedicated pixels are too few.
So what we are speaking about is really a CDAF/PDAF hybrid helping with CAF and tracking. If you want real PDAF for 4/3 lenses you’d probably need a more robust system.
Therefore I assumed that Oly would go the way of patten/silouhette recognition. Now if Sony has found a way to make its sensor work with 4/3 lenses, more power to them.
Next question is: will it work as well with pure PDAF 4/3 lenses, or with CDAF compatible lenses?
I trust Olympus to do a decent job. Apparently they have been working on the compatibility issues since before the first m4/3 camera was announced, but are still behind the curve in introducing a solution. Therefore I expect a comprehensive, better-than-competition implementation of this technology. It certainly took long enough.
A 43 camera with modular mount so either system lens can be used. Makes sense since the sensor is the same size. And NFC, which is the newest thing in comms between appliances
“new tech we never had before in Olympus cameras”
Which ones? m4/3? All Olympus ILSs? Any Olympus ever made? Give us a hint, admin.
One possibility is clear AF pixels. ATM the AF pixels have to penetrate the colours of the bayer layer, this reduces the low light performance.
Clear covers mean they gain light, so increasing performance. Thats a patent Olympus own, but clearly would have some difficulty implementing.
Interesting how this news is reported on this site and the Sony Alpha Rumors site. Neither report the whole story, just one side from each. You must read both to get a more complete picture.
well the sony section is very interesting; supertele lens in f/4.0 with Zuiko label. Let’s see how that works out.
The only thing that matters to me is whether the new technology enables me to use my fast weather-sealed HG/SHG-zooms.
still waiting for better mFT zooms…
Just don’t give them IBIS!!
A-mount already has IBIS. In fact, Minolta invented IBIS as that was the first company that put IBIS in camera
@admin OT was this already covered? the Mitakon Speedbooster at http://mxcamera.com/product_info.php?products_id=651&osCsid=6db4404478610755ccb4a8473510fa62
Who cares about shooting sports. Try shooting little kids running around with CDAF only! Pain in the butt! I’m definitely welcoming hybrid AF for the upcoming OM-D line!
Haha! That’s just ridiculous. I shoot any running kid with the C-AF of my E-M5 and most of my mFT lenses in decent light at any time. With shallof DOF, it this is required.
all i need, as a nature and bird photographer, is a weather-sealed 300mm f4 + weathersealed 1.4x teleconverter. of course, i want an m4/3 body that can usefully take in my now inactive 4/3 300mm f2.8
Panasonic sh!tting their pants, wondering how much more they can do with recycling sensors 😛
they plan for sport shooting too,but they do not support this AF ,
i sure they develop new fast tracking (moving subject) on their way,
don’ t stupid like you ,your idea AF is two different PD/CD only 😉
I fail to see why this is exciting. So far, on sensor pdaf has been a huge failure, and before you point out the nikon 1 system, their implementation works well with native glass and not adapted (which is the point). And to further dampen your illusions, sonys on sensor pdaf works on a select few lenses.
It works very well (for tracking) on Nex-6. Read DPR review.
And next generation PDDAF is supposed to be so good that cameras released in 2014 won’t require SLT mirror anymore
yeah,better than the last E-mount lens or camera AF,
for Olympus if they play with PDAF ,i am agree if Panasonic don,t play with PDAF,
if tomorrow Oly release their new OM-D they can bundle 1st lens for PDAF,
but after they speed up for others lens.(like we are wait F2.8 for a long time)
then Panasonic will release their new AF system ,if this new AF incompatible to Oly PDAF ,yeah it ‘s very good.
and next time Oly and Pany just make same lens mount ,but protocol and connector may different by their new AF
type,
When Lumix G lens and M.Zuiko is not same !!! i feel happy ^_^
Yes it works well but with native e mount lenses. The whole point of pdaf on sensor is adapted glass
high britates for video, but dont forget 12bit raw video too (jpg is a bullshit)
Seeing a patent for on-chip PDAF and assuming this will go in the next (or any future) OM-D is a pretty big leap, don’t you think?
Sony already has on-chip PDAF in the latest A series camera, and it doesn’t work anywhere near as good as their existing separate PDAF for follow focus. Neither does anyone else’s on-chip PDAF. I think there’s a lot of wishing and hoping going on to believe this patent is remotely related to the OM-D and that it will provide DSLR class continuous AF.
Yes this rumors is maybe not FT4, patent so is show us here is for NEX-6.
How we are all going to moan when we find out we sacrificed iq so our grandparents could use their old lenses.
How much are we going to moan when we find out we sacrificed IQ so that our grandparents could use their old lenses on our new cameras.
Cool! Now if only we can persuade Oly to let someone with more than half a brain redesign the menu system….
Personally I don’t give a monkey sh1t about on sensor PDAF, and mostly about AF. I think it’s a gimmick for lazy people. Nothing beats totally controlling your focus and exposure. Because of this, I am served with an older camera and don’t spend money on marketing gimmicks
Why are you here then? How did you end up in the comment section of a rumor site?
How much do you spend getting your old B&W valve TV fixed? Or have you not got to TV yet? Did some one sent this for you?