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I know we are comparing apple and oranges here. While the 6D has the FF sensor advantage the soon to be announced E-M1 has many superior features. But right now you can grab the 6D for the same rumored price of the E-M1….$1499 at [shoplink 41047 ebay]BigValue on eBay (Click here)[/shoplink].
So my question to you is:
[poll id=”206″]
209 Responses
E-M1 will rule all.
Hope so 🙂
Sure!
Love to see something awesome, even though I may not be able to afford it.
this should be interesting….turn up the fanboyism…LOL!
Don’t get me wrong…I love my OMD and the ten lenses I own…but when I it does not hold up to my 5DMarkIII…um..no way.
I want this new camera to be great…it will not be something that I will purchase though.
No, it won’t rule because its IQ will be much worse than the 6D.
Have you ever used a 6D? It’s a terrible camera. Controls and ergonomics are at the level of a Rebel.
Wow is it that bad really? I used to shoot with a canon 350D and indeed it’s a camera that gives the image but hard to fall in love with.
I own the 6D and it has some of the best ergonomics/handling out there! All the reviews put that over the rival Nikon, even though the Nikon edges out the 6D overall
You’re full of it, keep blindly defending a brand andaking yourself look stupid while doing so.
Mr ALL CAPS
I also own a 6D as well man and I’m saying the ergonomics are some of the worst I’ve ever seen. It is all restricted in a way to push you to upgrade to a 5D.
I, too, own a 6D.
You’re an idiot. The controls are fine.
It’s clear you never ever seen one inn person much less appreciate how far Canon has come to improve their ergonomics. I love both my e-m5 and my 6d, but 6d is much “quicker” to use than the Olympus with it’s circa 2004 Camedia menus.
Really, a canon sensor vs a sony sensor? At 1/4 the area the current OM-D sensor is actually quite close to the Canon.
Nope. Its not. The 6d is squeaky clean. I think its cleaner than the mk3. And its hilarious to see you take a stab at its ergonomics, when the omd is an ergonomics nightmare.
THe EM-1 is obviously mainly targeted at the E-X crowd who are probably willing to pay the premium price to use the legacy glass.
The PDAF on chip will probably come out in an OM-D EML-5.. in 4 months time for the rest of us at a 350 price reduction but with a very very very week aa filter as to keep the EM-5 the top dog.
Either way.. i’d wait a year over getting the EM-1 over the EM-5 and see what the next gen OM-D or EP-6 come to light unless I had some of the SHG glass OM’s.
6d dxomark
Sensor rating :82. High iso : 2380 dr:22.5
Em5 dxomark
Sensor rating :71 high iso : 828. DR :23.8
In what way is EM1 with tweaked sensor able to compare or compete vs a FF cam?
Just like a 5Dmk3, 1Dx, D4, D800, D6, D600 and all can’t compete with a large format camera with digital back when it comes to image quality. There is more to photography then getting the ultimate image quality, rather, that is often totally irrelevant, getting enough quality is what is relevant.
You seem to be mixing up street price and RRP. RRP for 6D is 1,999 USD / EUR if I recall correctly. 1,500 EUR / USD is street prioce now.
E-M5 RRP on arrival was 1,099 EUR. A camera placed above must be higher priced. Hence we can expect RRP of 1,299 to 1,499. Would hope for the former though
It’s not too expensive at $1500 if it includes the 43 mount adapter. The body only price should then be $1200. Would that be OK now?
6D’s MSRP is $2,100. But the market is market, and now the real price is $1500 – that is what it can be had for, and that is the price against which a potential buyer will make his/her decision.
I’m confused:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/892349-REG/Canon_8035b002_EOS_6D_Digital_Camera.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/635645-REG/Nikon_25464_D300s_SLR_Digital_Camera.html
E-M1 fits in nicely. Price is good. Time for the m43 community to mature.
i feel that the people voting “overpriced” for the E-M1 are possibly just sad that the cost is too high for their Hobbyist / Enthusiast budget. . . . .
I imagine Olympus are viewing the new E-M1 as a ‘Pro’ camera. Therefore the price reflects this. ???
E-M1 may be pro. But its still a 4/3 sensor. 6D is FF for crying out loud. No matter how good the tweaked EM1 sensor is, it still falls short compared to a FF! Oly really messed this up if the insists on going this way
its better not to judge on sensor size only, otherwise you could also critisize the high end Canons DSLR’s costing much more then the 6D. Other aspects in a body also contribute to the pricing (and now waiting for my personal Dr. Mengele dentist……)
LOL! Here he comes…
Given that it is the most expensive part of the camera, it does seem about right to judge it that way.
Lets don’t forget about R&D cost. It is not cheap.
You are absolutely clueless about how prices are determined, and for that matter, about cost.
Total cost of producing a camera includes r&d, testing, tooling for a production line, oh and cost of components, energy used for manufacture, cost of housing the production, storage, transport, staff training, marketing and a whole lot more that I forgot.
And know what? That only determines the lowest price for which it can be sold without a loss, actual price is determined by demand and availability or put differently, by what people are prepared to pay.
Ok, agreed. How do you propose to compare them then?
And, by the way, as an example of how clueless you are, R&D, marketing and several others you mentioned are not part of the product cost.
Without R&D there is no product, so yes, those are part of producing a product, if those are strictly spoken ‘production cost’ is totally irrelevant, they have to be recouped from sales, and hence add to the total cost, and the same is true for marketing and such. That you do not want to realize this doesn’t change anything, all those costs have to be recouped before there is any profit, and hence all those things count against the cost of producing the product.
As to your other question, how about comparing them based on how well they fit your specific needs and determining if they do so for a to you acceptable price? Or the other way around, set yourself a price limit and see which camera within that limit best fits your needs?
Obviously, if your ‘needs’ are having the camera with the best lab specs regardless of anything else, you’ll end up with something different from someone who determines utter portability with a still acceptable image quality is what they need.
“if those are strictly spoken ‘production cost’ is totally irrelevant”
Again agreed. The same way as my “sensor comparison” is not perfect at all, I am simply trying to find a common ground for a comparison. See, if we compare them “based on how well they fit (my) specific needs and determining if they do so for (me) at an acceptable price”, this would be only a good comparison for me and my purchasing needs. We won’t really be able to have a discussion based on it. Hence, we need a common ground for comparison, as far as possible from our own needs. I believe, a sensor and its performance is a possible solution.
A sensor and its performance..
Leica M9, crop factor 1.3, so not ‘full frame’, yet considered very desirable and capable of extremely high quality pictures, despite its not even ‘full frame’ sensor which isn’t a very new one either. Actually, tests put its sensor well behind many current smaller sensor cameras when exclusively looking at the sensor.
There are so many more things determining image quality that looking at the sensor alone is just totally pointless. Considering it as a part of the entire system on the other hand is very useful.
You mean the Leica M8. The M9 is FF.
Aye Jan, you are of course right.
Through that doesn’t change the point that it is one component in the imaging chain, and is a factor in image quality but doesn’t on its own determine image quality.
But you can’t use HG and SHG ZD’s on a Canon 6D. These lenses are superior to Canon’s lenses. Considering that the High ISO of the 6D isn’t a whole lot better than the current OMD….. The price of $1500 for the new one sounds good!
You can’t use them on the E-M1, either, because it’s too freaking small.
Sure, you can tow a trailer with a Fiesta, but you’re not going to have too much fun with that.
bullshit. The OMD with grip handles them just fine. It just doesn’t AF them worth a damn. If the EM-1 is a little bigger, even better.
I know first-hand that it doesn’t. Because I tried. Fingers cramp after a few minutes.
Anyone with experience handling heavy lenses knows you support the weight by holding the lens, not the camera body. If your fingers are cramping from holding the body, then you’re doing it wrong. Support the lens!
So you walk around carrying your camera with both hands, lest the simple laws of physics tear the mount of a flimsy, structurally unsound camera body. Got it.
Thats a incoherent juxtaposition. Its like bringing your truck to Tour de France! Bigger is not always better. And a camera is certainly much more than its sensor.
We are not m43 fans because of the price!
Thats a incoherent juxtaposition. Its like bringing your truck to Tour de France! Bigger is not always better. And a camera is certainly much more than its sensor.
We are not m43 fans because of the price!
.
Sorry to say it but you must be fraking retarded to buy a 1500 4/3 body for 1500 euro. 450 euro is tops and from there on you better buy apsc or FF. But he there always will be fangirls who will buy because its matches there purse.
My big question is: besides the full 4/3 lenses compatibility, what are the big feats of this E-M1 – since this is not a sensor, just a tweaked version with PDAF and no AA filter? How is Olympus going to differentiate this from the E-M5? Because if there isn’t, unless you have lots of 4/3 lenses, there is not that much appealing to upgrade from a E-M5, does it?
Renato: the shape of it, for starters, will be different. It will built like a tank, even more than EM-5. Those will already strike as big differences to the main public.
I know it will be more DSLR-shaped but what about the feats? If it’s just physical, you can add the E-M5’s grip to get better ergonomics, it wouldn’t justify the big price difference. Or will it be for the price of the adapter AND the grip? Anyway, I expected new feats, not just external and a more durable shutter.
Adding PDAF is not a small feat. Not something you can just tweak out of something.
It doesn’t seem like a big feat, Sony did that from one generation to another, even Fuji was able to implement that, Canon did that too, you just use some pixels to act differently, it’s not such a big deal, which is different from what Canon did with their new sensor, but this is not a new sensor. Olympus just asked Sony to do the same they did with their “old” 16MP sensor. Fair enough, the fine tuning of it mat take more effort but even so, it’s the same sensor.
Ah yes, fuji is known for its amazingly good and fast AF, as is the mirrorless eos. Actually, the only one who is selling a solution that actually works right now is nikon, and that one can only use the center af point and only works coz of a lot of dof.
Oh, and you are a tool.
After the OMD Pro is finally out with all specs and eventually reviews, its easier to judge the price.
FF are not directly comparable. They have different advantages. Only noobs oppose them. We see all the time Pros selecting m4/3 for some tasks, while keeping their FF for others.
Threfore, up to a point, they can be priced independently. Certainly noobs can contend that FF are the best of the best, but the truth is that they are becoming the equivalent of the old medium format.
BTW be it noted, like in an earlier OP, that Pros not only need more portability, but also more DOF, which m4/3 provides. Don’t let yourself be swayed by the clueless. FF provides bigger size, not necessarily bigger resolution – which is what matters.
A pro M43 can? I know there are lots of crappy “pro” photogs, but I have never seen a pro with M43.
Well, there’s Larry C Price (twice Pulitzer Prize winner) who’s very happy using a couple of OM-D’s for professional use, and he’s not gentle with them either. See larrycprice.com and his travel bag review.
The 6D is hardly a “pro” camera.
It’s only for the sensor-suckers.
That’s right. It was the ‘budget FF’ to try & distract buyers away from this ‘new’ interest in CSC’s. 😉
Because its selling. A lot of MkII-III users are using it as a second body, some pros using it as their main camera, because of the better low light performance, loke in weddings.
Whatever this Olympus camera does, you can bet the 6D will do it better.
Mr ALL CAPS
Nope, that 6D doesn’t do better when it comes to fitting in my backpack next to the laptop and all other junk I have to carry while commuting. Since that means I won’t have it with me in many situations it won’t be able to do better in many other things either.
You might be right but I (an Olympus shooter) was awestruck by the Work of a collegaue using the 6D camera.
She produced extremely stunning portaritsm candids and travel Photos, butthen Again : She has got the talent, tine and dedication !
A camaera is just a Tool, it does not take Pictures: the photographer does!
Sometimes you need a sledge hammer sometime a small hamnmer will Work better-
Will I switch to FF ?
No I like the M43 and remember :
Sensor size Is not the only thing determining Image Quality.
Quality of Optics, image composition, exposure, amounmt of light, direction of light, quality of light and image post processing also matters.
Actually my favorite portrat Photo was an OOC JPEG taken with an Olympus 5MP advanced point and shoot camera 5 years ago.
If I could afford the cost I would use M43 for everuday use, travel and as a backup camera, FF for sports and action and Medium foramt (Phase One) for portaits.
it is a pro body , the sensor is excellent , I have replaced my d600 with it and I can’t be happier. the D600 is really overrated, the D800E is a great camera but the D600 is not really good , with many many minor issues that never well documented in any so-called pro review online.
anyway, it is really wrong a m43 body costs more than a FF even if it has better feature set or body quality.
the tiny sensor is cheap so the body also should be cheap (actually at best 1/4th of the 6D and D600 )
I guess right combination of meds is found. You make perfect sense for a change. Keep taking them on schedule, stay away from bashing 4/3, and bravo to your Psychiatrist!
Haven’t come here for a while, and amalric, what have you done lately to generate all these fans of yours???
I am afraid this seemingly sane period will be overshadowed by a spontaneously occurring psychotic episode rather sooner than later.
I don’t think FF is becoming the equivalent of medium format. Look at its price, it says it all.
Thank you. I am not sure about Canon. The old Liveview on Olympus 4/3 was based on CDAF only.
But since the the new sensor will bring PDAF-on-sensor, there is no reason it can’t use it in LiveView.
It is the beauty of it.One day it will be seen that the it was the dSLR to be a hybrid, obsolete technology, because of the vagaries of the mirror box.
A second factor is the importance of IBIS: it is that which allowed the ‘free form’ shooting with Pens.
You don’t necessarily need a VF to stabilise the camera. However it is v. difficult to do that with 1kg. or 2 kg. lenses, so probably old 4/3 users don’t care and refuse to change their habits, while criticizing the younger generation. Sad thing.
So, the E-M1 might be water sealed, or have some other features that cameras like 6D don’t have, to justify the price? Here’s some comparison between a Mark III and 6d:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/6d/vs-5d-mark-iii.htm
With E-M1, the good live view / EVF might be advantageous in some situations – as you can still use phase detect autofocus and the old lenses focus fast. As I understand it, the 6D uses slow contrast detect in live view, is that correct?
Amalric, don’t mind the trolls, your comments are appreciated.
You don’t need autofocus with live view. The correct way of shooting a reflex is to look through the viewfinder, which should be good enough to allow critical focus.
Live view comes in handy in certain cases, when I normally focus manually.
The correct way of shooting a mirrorless – any mirrorless – is to rely on a viewfinder or live view screen, which are SVGA at the very best. Alternatively, you can rely on the autofocus, which only works if the subject stays still.
Compact cameras with smaller sensors have more DOF, which mitigates the problem.
Once mirrorless have got past this blocker, we can talk about “pro” stuff. Everything else is marketing.
+1. I’m waiting for dpreview.com or similar, reputable website to evaluate the new Olympus camera before I decide to buy it. It may or may not be overpriced for what it offers.
IQ is all that matters in the end and any Micro Four Turds camera is a woeful excuse when compared to a FF camera. Features don’t mean squat except to deluded peasants like the folks who populate this board.
The E-M1 isn’t worthy of licking the 6D’s jockstrap.
Pa-the-tic-troll.
Eh no, IQ of the camera you actually have with you is what matters.
Since you seem to think this is strictly determined by a camera being ‘full frame’ and claim that features don’t matter, I have a whole pile of 135 film point and shoots for you.
Link to your photos please.
“IQ is all that matters in the end” thus nothing smaller than medium format count, fool. Even $7k Pentax 645d is barely enough for a photographic got like myself.
All formats from FF and smaller are toys for simpletons who consider trivial things like feature, price, size/weight, accessibility, etc. to be important. Those won’t do me any good for I make superlative images that make eyeballs explode in pure delight.
Can I see one, just one ?
Hopefully one of the several hundreds you made with FF and whose superiority will make my eyeballs pop out ?
Someone pointed out earlier that the current price of the E-P5 with VF-4 is about the same. The 6D may be a great camera, but it doesn’t fit my needs. IBIS and focus peaking DOES fit my needs.
Eh, don’t be fooled by the Oly pricing schemes..
Possibly they priced the EP-5 so high that it + VF4 will make the new EM-1 look like a bargain!!!
IBIS is not needed when you have a camera that can shoot zero noise at 800 ISO.
IBIS is pretty much a necessity with 4/3. And it’s a partial solution.
Even on my D7000, I could care less about IS.. I just let ISO freeze the action.
But with video it’s awesome… but then again.. this is olympus we are talking about so.. not sure how many people are relying on IBIS for bottom tier video quality.
… And the Leica M9 costs much more than both put together.
Value depends on use case.
And what would that use of the M9 would be?
Me, I love the feeling of taking photos using a rangefinder. (leica bodoes are still too expensive though)
Maybe E-M1 will come with grip and additional battery + 4/3 adapter..
And around 1100-1200 euro without…
LOL…
What are those superior specs of the em1 over the 6d?
The ability to use ZD glass, the 6D is only 4.5 FPS, size, articulating LCD, 5 axis IBIS (great for shooting legacy glass) just to name a few.
I have all that on my 700$ omd. Why am I gonna pay 800 more dollars for the same body, all of that you just said, same sensor and only a faster af with some lenses? When I can get a full frame sensored body that takes some of the greatest glass ever?
Better weather sealing, more AF point, better burst rate, better LV AF, better viewfinder(for someone), tiltable screen, IBIS, maybe more discreet shutter.
Maybe not enough, but surely 6D doesn’t have lot more than a great IQ, and in terms of size/focal range E-M1 can suits more for someone needs.
and what is wrong for a camera to have a great IQ? all the rest are electronic gimmicks, they come an go.
there is nothing wrong with great IQ, but nowadays most cameras have sufficient IQ to be used in print, on the web or wherever. Not every ad has to be blown up to billboard size, so the cameras IQ becomes less important and the ease of handling for the photographer might be more important for some. The choice of great cameras is so good that you can choose the one that handles best without needing to worry for IQ.
in my opinion IQ always was and will be the criterion for a camera built to take photos. And if there is nothing to worry about IQ with nowadays cameras, so why all the fuss about new sensors or image comparison test! 😉
If it is all about iq I suppose you are shooting large format. You don’t??? Then you compromised image quality!
And eh, why all the iq tests?
Some people understand iq and compromises and can estimate if iq will be sufficient for a specific use they have in mind, most people just want to wank over the specs of their new camera, and will replace it with one with higher numbers, without ever wondering if and how that helps their photography. Either way it ensures a nice stream of page hits and often income for the site hosting the test.
Yes! You are so right! Only the sensor matters! That is why we now must consider all photos taken with obsolete cameras as crappy! All those horrible photos taken prior to the Nikon D3/D700, etc. Maybe we even need to include photos taken with the D3/D700! After all, they are only crappy 12 Mpx! 🙂
Erm … it has the label “Olympus” on it?
Admin, you’re stretching it here.. This is the same topic as the previous post, with no news..
Just give us the goods and please.. spare us the “thrill”, and the extra surveys.. that would be much appreciated
thanks!
The poll makes this interesting. We get to see our demographic (and, frankly, how many jump to conclusions, and how many are logical (i.e., don’t know yet) :-).
Plus, it’s better than overloading the bargain posts. And it does drive home the fact that not only do different people have different needs, but they often have different budgets as well. So there are a lot of variables outside of the camera (body) which affect the camera purchasing.
Oh come on! Do you really need a poll to tell you that ~70% people here have no clue whatsoever of what they are talking about? Couldn’t you just figure that out by the volume of the silly comments in the previous posts?
..But I guess that’s the price to pay for a popular system growing.. I like the silly comments in that they are bringing more people to m43 and then also helping me out with buying cheaper and better cameras and lenses..
This price is so wrong that it’s funny. Now, swarms of pros and highly talented amateurs will make wonders with this toy, which craps on my 135 DSLRs, and contradict me with their outstanding work. Yeah.
You have 135 DSLR’s?
135 is the traditional 24 x 36 mm formar, of which M43 covers one quarter, close to some compact cameras. This is one reason why this camera is way too pricey, other reasons include the kindergarten menus, the awful svga viewfinder, the (probably) non-existant focus tracking etc. The latter 2 errors guarantee blurry pictures of non-static subjects, with or without that useless “5-axis” stabilisation.
If the E-M1 has the VF-4 viewfinder, which has a 2.36M dot resolution, then it is XGA, not SVGA. Also, if it has PDAF on-sensor, then the hybrid focus system may allow for improved tracking focus.
No man, when they say the EVF has 2.36 M dots, they mean it has 2.36 / 3 = .73 M RGB blocks. More or less like a SVGA screen with 1024 x 768. If you look into one, you will realise it doen NOT allow critical image evaluation. Sure, you can shoot, then chimp, then reshoot… If the subject is patient enough.
WATCH OUT FOR THE CONS!
I know how it works, but SVGA is 800×600. 1024×768 is XGA. The VF-3, with 1.4M dot resolution, is SVGA (800×600).
XGA, like most pre-HD formats, is 4:3 ratio, whereas current HD formats are 16:9. If you view a 4:3 image on a 720p monitor, it will actually have less pixels (691k vs. 786k) than the same image on an XGA monitor.
135 film format = 35 mm film = Full Frame sensor size.
Hey Most High Admin, when you revamp the site, can you add a “sarcasm” check box below the “sibmit comment” button.. Some posters are clearly deficient in even the most light sarcasm. Probably FF users – need all the help they can get.
Your ignorance of what this camera will be is so funny. You are most likely just one of the crowd (sheep, if you like) that joins the cue buying what the other big boys are buying, believing the fallacy that biggest has got to be best.
I think guys that need ‘big’ cameras could be trying to make up for something else that’s small. 😉
Sunshine:
Balls. Must. Drop. Then you post.
ff nex with olympus tech ,5 axis ibis , arrives in a similar time frame as new omd pro , it will be interesting to see if sony fully utilise oly tech for video
Sony will have the in-laws staying over for the entire duration of their party (their foray into FF). The in-laws are called PHYSICS: the lenses will be considerably bigger than m4/3. Live with it, and see if that would be fine with you. It is not fine with me, so I don’t give a damn of that oversized sensor, although it might sound delicious, in reality it is not for me. One has to be realistic despite all the marketing sugar they throw at him.
interchangeable rx1 , would be very tempting especially with olympus ibis tech
Lenses, my friend. Let us see their lenses, and then let picture ourselves walking around, stowing them, lug them around and so on, all with those lenses on our cute, beautifully crafted body. It’s like with the in-laws. Everything is perfectly planned, and there they come to spoil the party. Whose fault is that? I would say that’s nature (large sensor=large lenses) and you cannot escape from it. But let’s see. Maybe they will surprise us with an unexpected technology…
A 50mm summilux M mount is not that big!.. Nor Oigtländers or Zeiss.
Wait, you need AF.. Well, next 35mm Zeiss for Nex FF is rumored to be slightly bigger than the M mount version.
Let’s wait and see.
Those same physics brought the ZM lenses, for example. Might very well be possible to figure something out and have decently sized lenses. Heck, they did make the 1018 for e-mount, didn’t they?
The Sony NEX-FF will be extremely interesting.
I won’t give a rat’s ass about their lenses, once Rainbow Imaging releases a line of NEX-FF lens adaptors for Nikon F, Leica M, Leica L, M42 and Olympus OM mounts.
Agreed. The Sony will be the 1st camera ever to be considered a proper “35mm legacy lens host”. However, it should have a proper viewfinder for that.
“Agreed. The Sony will be the 1st camera ever to be considered a proper “35mm legacy lens host”. However, it should have a proper viewfinder for that.”
Make your mind up further down the page you are not considering a FF camera beacuse you are waiting in an E-M1 with EVF ,…BS alert!!!
Olympus has tried to position 4/3 as a pro system from the beginning. The E-1 camera at $1700 introduction (street)price. The $6000 300mm f/2.8, those f/2.0 zooms, the list goes on and on.
It never made sense to me, and still does not. Yes, some professionals may be swayed by the advantages of the system or the fine optics of the Zuiko lenses, in the same way that some professionals use Leica rangefinders. But by and large, pro’s were/are not going to switch and burn their investment in Canon or Nikon gear.
$1500 for the E-M1? Sorry, too rich for me…
If the E-M1 has video comparable to the GH3, $1500 is a great price.
With the on-sensor PDAF, auto-focus and tracking during video would give it a huge advantage over the Panasonics contrast detection auto-focus.
Exactly how often do you see any form of focus in the footage you see? I mean all of them : movies, TV shows, youtube clips, sports, wildlife… seriously, focus is proably less than 1% of the footage you see.
AF in video? No big deal. Period.
I agree that it’s not used that often. Just like zooming, it’s nice but not critical. However, that doesn’t mean such technology will not change the game, so to speak. For me, tracking would be very nice indeed (shooting kids is often demanding in focus terms – both stills and video).
Well, X-pro1 at launch was priced almost the same.
If someone had a great Zuiko setup for 4/3(and maybe from m4/3), it can be worth the price, both in terms of IQ and size.
But, for someone who want to make a new setup…i don’t know, a FF coupled with some good price can have a better value.
Portably, mon ami Jerome. They are two different beasts. That’s why Oly is helping out Sony, because it doesn’t really compete with their (m43) offering. Who is confused by the two and see them as competing probably has not clue!!!
m43 is a winner on smallness of the overall kit
I came from a D700 to a PEN for portability
at the mo FF is gonna stay in front on things like pro sports shooting (no m43 lens to compete here)
but faced with FF price tag (even though we are comparing a rumoured RRP to a street priced 6D) its a brave shooter that puts there money down on the counter.
actually I think the GX7 (£819) has a price problem, an EM5 is cheaper (£785) and its just down to preference:
– 5axis ibis
– tilting evf
if the GX7 was £599 it would steal people away from the EM5
Well said. Who sees m43 and Sony FF competing (at least for his/her money) didn’t really ever hold a FF camera in his/hands hands.
Portability is the key. If you don’t need that or nimbleness in size, then m43 it’s not really for you.
The E-M5 is now dropping in price its UK price was £999 for much of its life
http://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/graphs/Olympus_OM-D_E-M5_Body_graph.png
For those of us that have invested thousands in Olympus optics we have two choices. #1 have a fire sale and loose our shirts and start over. #2 Keep our glass and try the new E-M1 from Uncle Oly.
Hint: if you paid more than 1000 bucks for the lenses, then I’d go for option #2, if I were you.
What by #3 buying more E-5, if E-7 not come.
I’m just hoping that 1499 is the MSRP but itll actually go for 1100 w/ lens. If not GX7 it is for me. The only reason why I am waiting to make my decision is I think weather sealing is something id appreciate a lot.
No!
That Price right and absolutely fair. This will be The Professionell Version and just look what the Canikon ProVersion are priced.
And I have Leica M9P setup and before a 4/3 E-x HG &SHG Kit.
You get what you pay for and pro is never cheap.
B
The non “Pro” FF models like the D600 have superb sensors , 100% OVF ,weather sealing, dual card slots, very good C-AF and tracking , excellent customization.
Yeah! :/ The D600 also has had oil on the sensor. Not very good quality control if you ask me.
The few cameras that had this took one simple clean to give you a perfectly working camera, All mass produced goods including cameras have gotchas some mild some less so all brands and all formats.These minor issues on any camera are wildly over reported more often than not by users of other brands who have never touched the camera concerned
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/41511901
My D600 has had no such problems. Don’t generalize.
AFAIK, dpreview, Thom Hogan and others (see reviews) still have reservations about the D600 because of the debris issue. A large number of bodies is affected. These days, Nikon mass-produced DSLRs should not have such problems (and the way Nikon finally “dealt” with it makes it clear they themselves are not used to such quality problems).
Personally, it was reason enough to postpone buying a D600. With the E-M1 coming, it will probably take even longer…
Owning two of greats zoom lenses of the Olympus line the 14-54 50-200mm and using a OM-D, is very tempting to switch for the E-M1 is the speed with the 4/3 lens is incremented substantially, but if don’t i will keep my OM-D.
The “no anti-aliasing filter” is like a new market flag, sensor with PDAF was one of the excuses to upgrade the Sony Nex series, and really i see not mayor improvements.
The new OM-D must make Olympus to compete with a plethora of new cameras with multimedia capabilities, like the GH3, the Nikon D7100. Many of you guys think this is a Photo camera and if you need video then buy a videocamera instead. Really? you have seen the market is heading to? even for editorial photographers the newpapers are demanding multimedia cameras, Photo, Video and audio in one box, i don’t know you guys but that is what i need and want to, a OM-D with great video/audio capabilities; i know… Olympus doesn’t have the video experience of Panasonic or Sony but look at Nikon the have made huge progress in that field. Cameras with clean output video signal, audio inputs with audio levels and earphone output, better video compressor.
For that! i happily will pay $1500 to Olympus.
My two cents.
“Many of you guys think this is a Photo camera and if you need video then buy a videocamera instead.”
On the contrary, many (most) think Oly should strive to be on par with Panasonic. Getting close is not that hard.
“I know we are comparing apple and oranges here. While the 6D has the FF sensor advantage the soon to be announced E-M1 has many superior features.”
FF sensor is not an advantage – it is a burden. Burden in form of lenses.
I personally think that manufacturers out of the desperation started simply abusing the GAS, offering what people “want”: not really want, but think they want. People buy the cameras and few months later sell them because there is a better one already announced. And the cycle starts again.
Yep, people buy things on what they imagine they’d use and then fail to actually use all those ‘must have’ features. Its stupid and easily abused.
I don’t know about you, but I want to shoot a picture with a nicer noise characteristic, I’d go full frame. On a 35mm sensor, the noise is grainy and pleasant. On MFT, it looks horribly smudged etc.
You could go on about the weight, but that sort of noise? Yuck…
Strange username considering your comments.
In what way do you use your photos that you can even see the noise in a way that it affects the overall image quality?
“On a 35mm sensor, the noise is grainy and pleasant.”
Use the 400% magnification. See the squares? Grr… ugly.
/s
Who in the fucking world ever looks at a photo beyond pixel level?
Sarcasm (the “/s”) and exaggeration have fallen on deaf ears.
The “noise” and “grain” you complain about/praise is visible only if you go into 100% view and look for it. IOW, pixel-peeping.
“FF sensor is not an advantage – it is a burden. Burden in form of lenses.”
Also don’t forget the too shallow DOF you get with FF.
Yeah FF sensors are such a burden that those FF cameras are sitting on store shelves as people flock to smaller sensors and m4/3 cameras is just what people want.
Give me a break. The advantages of a large sensor pretty much outweigh every little add on Olympus can glue onto their cameras to compensate for underperforming. Stop with the IBIS… no one with a large sensor cares because high ISO capabilities are just plain better than IBIS.
4/3 has portability going for it. That’s about it. But at the cost of lenses underperforming. The days of ZD being outstanding lenses compared to the likes of other manufacturers is long over. They are not heavily dependent on software correction, trumped in range, quality zooms are rare and usually flawed with CA and underpowered motors to allow them to be compact.
ZD lenses are no longer the legends they used to be. Time to wake up to that fact. They started being average lenses when the overpriced, slow and distorted 4/3 25mm came out and disappointed pretty much everyone.
And stop with the lenses BS for FF. People buy a platform for bodies first and lenses are always an afterthought. As much bells and whistles Oly can throw on their camera, when it comes to pressing the shutter at night or at a sporting event, and another huge selection of sub-optimal conditions, the FF camera has the clear advantage. Even my grandma knows that. and she’s dead.
Additionally the argument of people sating “better weather sealing” is complete BS. I have seen more olymus sealed cameras fail than survive getting wet. there’s no evidence Oly is any better. Stop.
Why do i choose Olympus or 4/3 for that matter? Portability. And it’s not like it’s a pocketable phone. And that’s why people aren’t flocking to these cameras.
Pay more for less image quality and more portability? Nope… people will just stick with phones for portability. And if they are going to carry something they can’t pocket.. may as well get a sensor that will perform far better than a phone, on a larger camera. Sales numbers. Look at them.
I have always been an Olympus guy… but if I’m going to pay as much as a FF camera for something that clearly isn’t going to perform as much.. and probably isn’t going to perform any better than the soon to be 2 year old predecessor, I’m going to rethink exactly how much a bit smaller camera means to me. Sucks… but that’s the trend. People are buying either FF or using cell phones. Buying into the middle isn’t happening. And it’s because of these crazy high prices for sub-optimal performance.
Mattphoto, looks like you spent too match time in ur underwear in front of the computer posting that unread response.
admin more solid news please 😛
It will pay for itself on the first job I use it on 🙂
Who pays you for that stuff?
Kinda silly to compare msrp prices with ebay prices.
Admin, I think it’s high time that you do something about the commenting system. Is it hard to force people to login with accounts and use real names? It’s getting very tiresome to read all these negative, childish comments.
Why do some people even come here?
anonymity brings out the worst in people…
That’s right, bhwahwahwah!!!
> Why do some people even come here?
It’s the price of popularity.
> anonymity brings out the worst in people…
Pretty much all of the research shows that it is wrong assumption.
Case in point: see the DPR forums.
If the E-M1 is indeed a professional quality tool then $1500 is a very reasonable price. If it’s a consumer camera with big dreams then it’s priced somewhat high. We’ll see when the first units get into user’s hands.
This sort of pricing can only end “well”.
It’s overpriced in the sense that people are going to question the price rather than immediately thinking “Wow, that’s a great deal.” The torrent of idiotic comments proves that.
What would people think if the E-M1 comes with a weather sealed Zuiko 14-40mm f2.8 constant aperture kit lens with IQ in the same league as the better 4/3 zooms – all for $1600 ?
That there’s somehing wrong! 🙂
Me too. €2200 would be more like it.
The typical Olympus pre-release hype. Always a revolution in each new Oly’s gear. Lets see…..
Most weren’t disappointed at all with them E-M5 (camera of the year, anyone?). It was considered a real breakthrough for mirrorless cameras in general. Good to see the OM-D product line evolving.
Realy need visual and complete specs…my E-P5 will be a perfect back up to E-M1.
$1500 is no problem IF the features of the camera (aside from sensor size) are truly competitive with pro camera like 5Diii. But then they really would need to be competitive on: speed, video features, full remote control over wifi, continuous AF accuracy, …
(Will upgrade from E-M5 if this is really a pro camera)
The funny thing about this website, is when I post something, a lot of the times I feel like the minority, and yet these sort of polls are a real dose of sanity on an otherwise insane website. The majority of the people that vote, must not post on here, so what that must leave is a bunch of lunatics around here.:)
The majority here are amateurs with rather limited budgets. Canikon have been selling them compacts and entry-level DSLRs for years, generating tremendous revenue. Judging by the comments, most people are not qualified to have an opinion on price. They should focus on the street price of the E-PM2, the E-M5, the GX-7 and so on and leave the high-end stuff to others. Eye of the beholder and all that.
m4/3(and 4/3) never be more than an amateur system…
The size always will be important, because of the angle of view.
To have angle of view of FF 50/1.4, panasonic must made 25/0,7…
Wich will cost $4000 and if you want FF 50/1.2 angle of view????
” m4/3(and 4/3) never be more than an amateur system…”
Lol, thats what many ‘pros’ were saying about 135 format (35mm or ‘full frame’) for decades, some until the advent of digital photography. You know, that format that todays ‘pros’ must have to be considered a ‘pro’ by idiots like you.
“The size always will be important, because of the angle of view.”
That makes no sense whatsoever. Angle of view is a function of sensor/film size and focal length.
“To have angle of view of FF 50/1.4, panasonic must made 25/0,7…”
Hahahaha, no mr. idiot, that gives you the same angle of view and depth of field, the later of which is often so stupendously shallow that its totally useless, unless your idea of photography is portraits that are one huge blur except for that one hair.
Angle of view and depth of field are totally different things, and ANY 25mm lens on a m4/3 camera will give you roughly the same angle of view as any 50mm lens on a 135 format camera, aperture has nothing to do with that whatsoever.
“Wich will cost $4000 and if you want FF 50/1.2 angle of view???”
You can also just apply a blur filter to the entire picture, much cheaper.
You’ve completely dismembered poor Stoev’s comments in mere seconds, with some nice history thrown in. Appreciated. Especially the bit about usuable DoF (I own a 25mm/0.95 which is stopped down to f/1.4 most of the time).
mister Anonymous Idiot, when you dоn’t understand what I mean, you’re not a photographer, you’re just snap shooter!
Go than and shoot your birds and mountans with point-shoot camera with 1/2.5″ sensor, Anonymous Idiot:):)
Stoev, matter of fact is that you clearly demonstrated not having a clue whatsoever about the difference between field of view and depth of field, so it is more a matter of you not understanding things.
As said, many of them so called pros were saying exactly the same thing you are saying for decades, with one difference, they were calling 135 format ‘amateur’, and claimed you needed at least medium or large format to be considered a pro.
Has nothing whatsoever to do with me not understanding what you are saying, but with you getting the basic technical part of your comment totally wrong, and making the same absurd claim as all those medium/large format shooters did for decades about ‘full frame’ 35mm.
Go learn that various formats have their place based on application, and that you making money with your photography has absolutely zero to do with the suitability of a system for a certain application.
Of course it’s an amateur system, and most people outside this forum realise it. Beside the compact-sized sensor, I have never seen such horrid menus, even funnier are the SVGA viewfinders praised like they are the future of photography. The same applies to Sony and all the mirrorless brigade.
This toy would be overpriced at 500 EUR. Why doesn’t Oly try a proper compact with a non-removable zoom and drop this whole nonsense?
You should give xz1/xz2 a try. Great compact, only missing integrated evf IMO.
MSRP of the 70D body is $1200, which is more competitive to the OM-D 1.
It’s hard to compare ebay prices. But the point of the article is that the price of the new Oly is too high. Poll agrees.
How much without the useless adapter? Why should I pay for your dead system?
Yes, why should you? Who is pushing you to buy any camera? Make up your own mind. Be a man.
I think that CaNikon is playing this game intelligently.
CaNikon know that their mirrorless offering sucks and probably have nothing in the pipeline to compete with m4/3 and Sony NEX (APC-S and FF).
By lowering the prices on its FF cameras to the point of matching the new offerings from m4/3 and Sony, will make it very difficult from a marketing standpoint for mirrorless.
CaNikon have the balance sheet, marketing power, retail network, eco-system and now price to overpower mirrorless.
I believe that all mirrorless players need to step up their game to have a fighting chance.
There needs to be more than incremental improvements for these companies to charge us 1’500 for their cameras.
Better video codecs, more value for its lenses, better accessories (flash and mics) and AF tracking, otherwise……..
@Jack le Boil
Most of what you suggest is coming very soon from Olympus, Sony and Panasonic, they will also deliver more…
Canikon’s present and future balance sheet doesn’t look as strong as you would like to think.
Perhaps.
On the info we have until now, I would suggest that is not the case yet. Most improvements are welcomed but incremental.
Granted, these are rumours and we do not know the specs and quality of these cameras until they are out.
On the financial side, Panasonic and Olympus have sever financial problems.
Their camera division have lost money the last 2 – 3 years, and in the olympus case there was massive fraud.
This is not a dig at mirrorless, but an understanding that they need economies of scale to leverage new R&D, marketing costs and sensor development. I believe releasing a camera for 1’500 will not achieve these goals.
At $1500, I think this camera will mainly be attractive to those of us who already have some 4/3rd lenses. Like me.
If I did not have that investment, and I had $1500 dollars to spend, and I was choosing a camera, I think for something small, portable, with good video, then the GX7 is hard to beat.
I don’t want a large FF thing to lug around.
Interestingly my friend who has a Nikon FF and I went on a photography trip. We both thought my pics looked better, although I believe it was down to the 20mm Panasonic lens that I was using which gives the pics something extra. IMO.
🙂
Timbo said: Interestingly my friend who has a Nikon FF and I went on a photography trip. We both thought my pics looked better, although I believe it was down to the 20mm Panasonic lens that I was using which gives the pics something extra. IMO.
Well I’m not surprised, and while good glass will make a difference the simple fact is that at “normal” viewing sizes and reasonable ISO’s it really is hard to tell the differences. FF will show their stuff at larger viewing sizes where more detail is displayed and higher ISO’s as well (depending on the camera) with high action shooting. And the truth be told, FF with cheap lenses often is worse then m4/3 or APS-C with any medium to good glass. Especially when it comes to edge and corner detail, color, etc. To get the most out of FF, prepare to spend a lot of good money on high end glass. Then they will truly deliver amazing images.
Kind of like buying a Ferrari or Porsche and then putting on the cheapest tires and filling it with the cheapest gas. A total waste.
This is getting ridiculous. First off, take a close look at that $1599 Canon 6D. What is conspicuous is that it does not list a USA warranty. That means it is grey market. If you are in the US and have any problems requiring warranty service, good luck, because Canon USA will not fix it under warranty. This means that in addition to the Camera cost itself you will also have to buy an additional 3rd party warranty. Cost $199-499 depending on length and source) For the record, most of the reputable vendors providing USA warranty still list at $1999.
Also all we have now is “unknown third party” leaks of what “might be”, not what is the introductory price.
Now, let’s look at the actual prices of bodies for enthusiast non-pro DSLR and m4/3. And yes, we know that some have been reduced in price because of time on market or current competition. — Further down below this is a comparison of introductory PRO body prices.
MSRP (Manufacturer Suggested Retail US$)
Canon 70D 1199 body only
Nikon D1700 1199 body only
Sony A77 1099. body only
Sony Nex7 1099. body only
Canon 6D $1999 body only
OMD-EM5 1099 body only
Panasonic GH3 $1299 body only
Olympus said from the outset that the OMD-EM5 was not a “Pro Grade” camera. Typically, Pro Grade means the camera is designed with increased durability, weather resistance, and long life components such as shutters rated at 150,000 to 200,000 cycles or actuations. Of the cameras above, most are tested/rated only to 100,000 actuations, some may be not rated at less.
The new OMD-EM? is supposed to be Pro Grade and by Olympus own interpretation this means greater durability and longer life components. This means we can expect a more durable body, increased shutter actuation rating to at least 150,000+ and yes maybe even improved water/dust/weather resistance. The Olympus E1-5 series cameras are some of the most weather (water/dust) resistant cameras ever made, ranking right up there with the top end Nikon and Canon. And yes they are Pro Grade rated. So this should give us some idea what to expect from a Pro Grade OMD-EM?
So among PRO grade cameras, how does the “rumored” introductory price of the OMD-EM? compare? Check it out because if $1599 is accurate, that would make the new OMD the lowest introductory priced Pro grade camera on the market in the last several years.
Nikon D4 (full frame) (16mp) $5999
Nikon D300 (APS-C) (12.3mp) $1799
Canon 5D Mark III (full frame) (21mp) $3459
Canon 1D-X (full frame) (18mp) $6799
Olympus E-5 (12.3mp) $1699
(rumored) OMD-EM? (16mp) $1599.
So if you think that $1599 is too much for a Pro Grade camera like the rumored OMD-EM? then don’t buy it, because clearly you would not appreciate what you have. There are lots of other lessor non-pro cameras you can enjoy.
My bad:
Nikon D1700 1199 body only should read Nikon D7100.
With all due respect you are simply defining pro grade as a measure of build and durability, such as shutter actuations, without regard to sensor size, optical VF, etc.
For most people any of the cameras you list are more than enough in build quality and durability. Most people will never approach 100,000 shutter actuations, much less 150,000.
And the durability of cams such as the 6D, 70D, D7100 is more than enough for most people in most situations. Even Rebels can take a whole lot. They are not cheap cameras in terms of build, and can easily take a rainy day at Disney World or at the soccer field. They don’t have to survive a 10 day shoot in the rain forest or African plains for National Geographic.
This new EM1 will be a fantastic camera, but I don’t think we’ll see that many pro’s switching from Canon or Nikon to it. At most some may adopt it as another camera in their bag, for personal fun as well as limited use as a second or third camera in pro shoots.
The rest of the market will view this price as too high. And that market of enthusiasts is where the money is.
The money is in the high margins, which means the pro segment. Consumer level products tend to become commodities with low margins and profits.
Plenty of Pro’s have already taken up the E-M5. It is reasonable to suppose that if the rumoured significant increase in IQ is delivered in a Pro quality body, even more Pros will adopt it.
The rumoured E-M1 does not have the same sensor as the E-M5. PDAF alone makes that a fact. The rumour stating it did was phrased in poor english to the point It can not be said for certain what the person meant. It was like the rumour where the body of the E-M1 was stated to have the same ‘house’ as the E-M5.
Introducing refurb prices to argue against the rumoured price of the E-M1 is a failure of logic right there.
I think a McLaren MP-12C is too expensive – mainly because I lust after one and it’s a bit over my budget – but it’s target market clearly don’t think so.
That is the way with lots of desirable and expensive things – their price is dictated by reality, not wishes.
Those who can’t afford the E-M1 will just have to wait a good while or just buy something they can afford.
As others have remarked, it is silly to say something is too expensive when you haven’t even seen it yet.
“Plenty of pros have already taken up the E-MD5”? I want some of that stuff you been smoking.
Since this is about ‘pro grade’, your comments are totally off the mark, go buy an E-M5 or D7100 or other ‘non pro’ camera, as it will be totally good enough.
What is the difference between a 5Dmk3 and 6D? The later actually has more pixels, also has a 100% ovf, can mount the same lenses and is much much cheaper, why? Not because of optical quality, not because of the viewfinder, so what is it??
Why would Canon even bother with that 1Dx and 5Dmk3? why does anybody buy them when the 6D provides more then enough weather sealing, optical quality and usability for almost everyone?
Why is it that when I’m at an outdoor event shooting with my E-3 or E-M5, and it starts raining, all the Canikony (and Panasonic alike) using photographers run for cover? Yes, that includes those using 6Ds, D600s and so on.
First off let me correct a typo in my figures above. The Canon 5D MarkIII has 22.3 megapixels not 21.
That said, lets clarify the actual facts between the 5D Mark III and the Canon 6D since it has been implied that the 6d is the better featured for less money (not true). And let me clarify these are just a few of the differences, not all.
The data below is from Canon’s Spec Sheets.
5d MarkIII 22.3 effective megapixels
Viewfinder 100% coverage
Autofocus – 61-point (up to 41 cross-type points)
Continuous Shooting Speed – High-speed: Maximum. 6 shots/sec.
Shutter – 1/8000 to 30 sec., bulb x-sync at 1/200
Canon 6D – 20.2 effective megapixels
Viewfinder 97% coverage
Autofocus – 11 points 1 cross type point
Continuos shooting speed – 4.5 shots/second
Shutter – 1/4000 to 30 sec., X-sync at 1/180 sec
So we can see that the 5D MarkIII is the one with greater megapixels, the 100% viewfinder and the better core feature set by a noticeable degree. And there are “other differences if one wants to look them up.
As to the question “Why is it that when I’m at an outdoor event shooting with my E-3 or E-M5, and it starts raining, all the Canikony (and Panasonic alike) using photographers run for cover?” Well I can quickly think of 2 probable reasons, though there are sure to be others as well. 1.) They don’t want to get wet themselves. 2.) Their specific cameras may either not have weather resistance (no specific models were specified) or they are unaware of the weather resistance of their cameras/lenses.
Daav, I agree with the gist of your post, and there are many things that may make a 5dmk3 worth the significant premium over the 6d. I was hoping to get some response from those who are all the time touting the 6d or d600 as the solution for everyone and everything because of the sensor size. You are obviously not one of those.
Through the details are different, the type of things you mention apply just as well for other formats and systems then the 135 format ef and fx ones
With regards to people running for cover, mostly 7d and d700 and similar cameras. When asking about it, at times they aren’t aware of the weather sealing but most are, but feel uncomfortable about using their equipment in the rain regardless. The isea of rinsing off their camera under a tap because of mud/dirt sticking to it makes them cringe, and seeing someone do so makes them look in amazement. Its typically not the 1d/5d/d3/d4/d300 users that show such behavior. It might have to do with how much they actually trust the weathsr sealing of their cameras I’d think… can’t blame them seeing how for example the d700 manual rather explicitly warns you to not USE the camera while its wet beczuse of risk of electrical shock. Put differently, most weather sealed cameras will survive getting wet, but that doesn’t mean they are intended to be used in the rain. About every ‘pro’ camera however doesn’t just survive getting wet, but can actively be used in situatiins where it will get wet
Well let’s just say that those of us that have had the joy of using an E1-5 know that they have amazing weather resistance and rank with the best pro cameras in that aspect. There is no “hard specification” for weather resistance so not all cameras claiming that are equal in that respect. Even Nikon acknowledges that the D800, D600, D7100 have an equivalent weather resistance to each other, but that it is not as good as say their D3 and D4. And of course as you know, to have a completely weather resistant camera requires an equally weather resistant lens, and there is a lot of variance in quality there. In the middle ground, Olympus, Panasonic and Pentax have provided the best weather resistance when used with quality weather resistant lenses, that is on par with the best of the Nikons and Canons. There are a lot of other weather resistant cameras but the quality varies.
One of the reasons why many weather resistant cameras don’t have flipping or swivel LCD’s is because it greatly complicates trying to weather seal the cameras. All those swivel points must also be weather sealed and it adds to design cost, assembly and labor time by quite a bit (especially the labor). Something many people do not consider when complaining about the price. It is often the little details that are the most expensive. When people complain about the price of cameras like the OMD-EM5 or the Panasonic GH3 or even the rumored new OMD, they don’t consider all the little details that make them so special. Take a look at all of Pentax Canon and Nikon’s weather resistant bodies and you won’t find a swiveling LCD among any of them. Too hard to design and a pain to build. But these things aren’t what most people think about. Consider then the accomplishment of the m43 bodies that are weather resistant. It wasn’t magic and it wasn’t easy and it wasn’t cheap, but Olympus and Panasonic pulled it off already on 2 models and maybe a 3rd soon.
It was stated: “With all due respect you are simply defining pro grade as a measure of build and durability, such as shutter actuations, without regard to sensor size, optical VF, etc.”
I will agree that there are other factors. As to sensor size, the OMD-EM? is equal to the top end Nikon (for now), and only 2 megapixels behind the top end Canon, if the rumored specs are correct. I think it is wise that Olympus focus on image quality, even if the gains are small, rather then get caught up in the “megapixel race”. Increase the megapixels when the technology is there, as long as image quality is not sacrificed. It is generally established that the OMD-EM5 can produce, with care, excellent wall prints up to 20X24 and very good prints at larger sizes. If there is a need to go higher, the best choice would be Full Frame or Medium Format. For web or digital purposes, 16mp is still more then good enough, even allowing for some cropping. Capable of large magazine covers and dual page spreads.
As to the viewfinder, that is a good issue to raise. Thanks for doing so. It is rumored that the new OMD-EM? will have the same electronics as the already acclaimed Olympus VF4 viewfinder. Obviously it will not have an optical finder, but the expectation for a “Pro” camera is a high quality viewfinder, in the past that has meant an optical. But it need not always be so. Let us take a look at DPReviews comments on the VF4 viewfinder in there preview no less: “The VF4 is one of the largest electronic viewfinders around: its 0.74x equivalent magnification places close to the very best optical finders found in full frame SLRs such as the Canon EOS-1D X. It also offers 100% coverage of the field of view, allowing critically accurate composition.” (Link: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/olympus-pen-ep5/4 ) Other reviewers have commented on the high resolution and quality OLED as well as its brightness. If the new camera provides a good implementation of the same components, it will have already passed all lower end DSLR’s that use “penta-mirror” rather then “pentaprism” optical viewfinders and will be approaching the quality of the best high end optical viewfinders.
Ever individual will have to decide if the improvements warrant the price, but after 48+ years in photography, I am confident that there are plenty of photographers out there who will see the value. No, they won’t come in swarms to switch form Canon/Nikon or any other brand, as the economic penalty would be too great, but there will be enough, who value the system size/weight/quality combination (including lenses) along with high end features to make it a competitive option.
I hold to my contention that $1599 is not too much for a Pro Grade camera, and is in fact already on the low end of “Pro” camera prices. – That of course is on the condition that the new OMD-EM? actually lives up to its rumored “Pro” status. We are after all dealing with rumors here.
Stated: “For most people any of the cameras you list are more than enough in build quality and durability. Most people will never approach 100,000 shutter actuations, much less 150,000.”
No argument there. Obviously the rumored Pro OMD-EM? is not for most people. It would clearly be an upper level camera for the the most demanding enthusiast, semi-pro and pro photographers and those who simple want the best, regardless of the their skill level. So the potential market however is still quite large globally. The Canon 6D is not for most people. The Nikon D800 and D600 series are not for most people. Even the Nikon D7100, Sony Nex7 series, Canon 70D, High end Fuji’s etc, are not for most people. Yet people still buy them.
There is no doubt, that Olympus needs to improve their marketing, especially in the very large US market, but that is another issue that needs to addressed at the corporate leadership level. I am convinced that Olympus US does not know how to market a consumer product and focuses instead on their successful commercial, industrial, medical products where they have easy success. Perhaps Olympus global needs to provide a bit more “guidance’.
not sure yet… 6d has nothing for just IQ and em-1 has everything not really good in IQ
In addition to supporting the 4/3 lenses with your hand, I use a monopod with my 150mm f2.0. My 14-35mm f2.0 I’m careful to support the lens so that I don’t stress the contact points between the lens and the adaptor. Basically, shooting a camera is like shooting a high power rifle — either standing off hand or sitting.
This is the problem with these very great but very high priced m4/3 bodies. It will not be seen as price competitive given the market.
As another comparison, you can get from Adorama thru Ebay a refurb Nikon D600 kit with lens for $1600.
There are great APS-C dslrs for less. You have the NEX series. You have the Fuji X series.
Let’s face it: sensor size matters…a lot. And the main advantage these m4/3 cams have going for them is size. If you had a camera with the same specs but the same size as dslrs, there would be no doubt which one most people would choose. That being said, size is a compelling feature.
The cost doesn’t have to be so high. The sensor cost is markedly lower. There is no mirror/prism assembly. The rest is electronics, which doesn’t cost much to manufacture. Sure there are R and D costs, but those are spread across multiple products. Also, with this new OMD it uses the same sensor as the EM5 but tweaked, so alot of the R and D costs have already been absorbed.
These prices are approaching Leica territory and the way they price the X series. They are still great cameras, but Oly and Panny need to get real on pricing.
But m43 don’t
Until we know exactly what kind of beast we are talking about, full spec, how can we say it is too expensive or ot?
You’re absoltely right.
It’s the result of reality tv’s generation ,people stop thinking by themself.
People who think E-M1 is overprice will not buy 6D instead and people who actually considering to buy E-M1 will not buy 6D instead just because of price…
1500 USD is too much, it should definitely be cheaper than 6D, regardless of how much advanced E-M1 is. Prices of equipment fall as time goes by. Olympus (and Panasonic) cannot hold on to 2009 prices forever. If they do, they’ll end up with Leica-like sales.
Oh, you mean the way petrol, food, iPhones and cars get cheaper every year?
Petrol and food are not what you’d call equipment (or electronics). Prices of average TV, PC, laptop, phone, camera, even household appliances are falling every year. At least until they reach some profitability limit… So why not m4/3 cameras?
Cars are a bit different, their prices have been rising with every new generation for the past 20-30 years, but that’s mostly because of stricter safety regulations and electronic systems whose number in them just keeps growing.
As for iPhone, I’ve no interest in Apple products, partly because of their price vs features ratio.
Price are not falling ,look at 4K tv ,gaming PC,real professional laptop with mat screen..ect..ect…
Quality will always have a price and buyers.
It is yesterdays technology that will be cheaper today. Buying todays technology has always been expensive (relatively speaking).
And especially with ‘premium’ products, that is, products built to a higher quality standard and for a higher price segment, cost of manufacture isn’t what determines price, demand and availability is. That is rather economy 101 level.
Well my most recently purchased laptop cost more than any other I have ever bought.
Quality lenses – are the the prices od these falling? Does the current model iPhone get cheaper every year?
Generally, as anonymous mentioned, what gets cheaper is older technology. The introductory price of quality electronics seems to me to stay fairly constant, except you get more performance for your money.
When cameras went digital, they came under the influence of Moore’s law because their performance was defined by advancements in the production of IC’s which the production cost vs performance ratio of has been constantly rising. This has caused an inverse effect of used prices falling accordingly.
Its hilarious to go back to the gh3 announcement and see THE SAME people defending the em1s price here call it ridiculously expensive. Hahahahaha
T.H. just kidding, I already know. But watch when this camera releases and Sink to sub levels on amazon, when nobody buys it.
Too many better options out there available, or soon to be released.
Again, the majority of purchasers for this camera will wait for a substantial price drop before they pull the trigger. And That will only hurt Olympus..
Hahahaha!! Oh we’ll, goodbye Olympus, hello Sony?
Cain in low light iq dr dof ha ….. M43 is dead
Lol canon and dr bad combination.
The right compare need to be to the 7d.
I usually order stuff when I’m drunk, because I don’t care about the price when I’m drunk. I had some wine and a couple of drinks tonight, and the new OM-D doesn’t seem overpriced to me. So I guess all the losers who complain about the price must be sober. Sober is not good, but I like sorbet. Go figure.
Cheers!
The initial post is flame bait so the responses are unsurprising.
Some key points:
(1) Of course the launch price includes an “earlier adopter premium” that is later offset by rebates. Canon Cameras like the 6D also are launched at a price that includes an “early adopter premium” that is later offset by rebates. It is “too expensive” if you are unwilling to pay this premium, it is not “too expensive” if you are.
(2) as pointed out, 1500 is actually below the current street price.
(3) as pointed out by many in this thread, within any sensor size there is a range products. Canon’s 6D is the “entry level” full frame model. You can spend almost $7k on a Canon product with the same sensor.
(4) It’s a bit of an exaggeration to compare the 6D to the Rebel. The controls are similar to the XXD series.
(5) Thankfully, Micro 4/3 offers a very broad range of products to cater to different needs and tastes. The GH3 is just over half the price of the 6D on bhphoto. For those who just care about sensors, the E-PM2 and E-PL5 both have good sensor performance at a much lower price point. This new model clearly isn’t for these people.
1. Yes, a product is worth as much as people are willing to pay. Many seem to have a very naïve understanding of economy, thinking that the price of a product should be directly correlated to the cost of manufacturing it. It’s much more complex than that; for example, R&D and marketing costs are spread out over the estimated sales volume, which in turn is determined by the expected demand for the product. Sales volume of premium, high-end products are almost always lower than “entry-level” products, and that is reflected in the price. If it turns out that the actual demand is very different from what’s expected, then the price is usually changed to compensate for that, in one direction or the other.
Also, high-end products are supposed to be more reliable and durable, which means tighter manufacturing tolerances, and more time and money spent on quality control. This also affects the price, of course.
3 & 5. Indeed, it’s not just about sensor size, even if the cost of manufacturing sensors actually increases exponentially with sensor size, not linearly. But professional-grade equipment are expected to have better build quality, better ergonomics and better performance (battery life, AF, shot-to-shot speed etc., requiring more and/or faster processors). Image quality is probably the least important factor when it comes to distinguishing between professional and consumer cameras. There are many inexpensive entry-level cameras with excellent IQ, if that’s the only factor one cares about.