The recently announced Canon 70D ($1199 DSLR) is the first camera having an on sensor usable phase detection AF area that covers 80% of the frame. On paper this sounds like a sort of holy grail solution for mirrorless cameras. There are many advantages like:
- AF works at apertures down to F11
- AF covers 80% of the frame
- AF works in light levels as low as 0 EV
- Can work with face detection to keep moving subjects in focus
But Panasonic engineers came up with a similar solution described in US patent 8482657 (Click here). The patent contains plenty of images and description for the more advanced tech friendly readers. I don’t think that sensor will be used for the soon to be announced GX7. But I am sure the next GH may feature exactly that kind of on sensor phase detection feature.
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Admin,
Do you have any news regarding the 4/3 E-5 replacement, the E-7 yet? Thanks! 🙂
coming for sure. Working on specs yet…
Thanks! 🙂
And what about E-M5 II? Is it coming this fall? It is fine to read that m4/3 will strengthen its possition with bodies like GX7 or new OMDs.
Fall? Do you mean Autumn in the northern hemisphere?
Don’t you hate it when folks are geographically and seasonally insensitive? I always send my Aussie “mite” a Christmas card depicting a decorated palm tree and a female Sandy Claws wearing a bikini. 😛
Sounds good to me! 😉
I think that depends where in the hemisphere you are. In North America, fall is the more common term for the season after summer. Autumn is also acceptable however.
That was really my point, I confess. ‘Fall’ has become so entrenched (so it seems) in North America that it almost appears that the actual season’s name of Autumn is forgotten, even though the rest of the world (English speaking at least) know it as Autumn. Anyhow, the next season for us down here will be Spring. 😉
Read this: http://grammarist.com/usage/autumn-fall/
I think he means Indian Summer
Why would you assume that?
Since you didn’t reply to my question below, I will point out that Indian summer is not the same as autumn (fall). The term Indian summer describes a particular warm period late during the fall season in North America between late October and early November. This coincides with leaves turning colorful.
The OM-D E-M6 will rock!
I’m interested in both 4/3 and micro 4/3. 🙂
I wonder when will we see cameras based on this kind of technology.
Probably not for another 2-3 years.
At the same time it is good to see how the M43 platform is maturing.
Canon has implemented it in the 70D and you mean it will take m43 another 2-3 years to copy that??? That is a chinese view of life.:-)
Hopefully engineers at Panasonic already worked on phase-AF and we will see that in GX7 now.
It is usual for technologies to even out over time, but it depends on how many variations of a technology can be patented (legally allowed). It is also usual for one type out of a number of hybrid forms to be superior, but it will depend on how well it can be homogenised into an existing system.
Please let me understand better.
Is this a constant front-focusing sistem which has to be applied a correction to get the right focus?
Macintosh sauce you are wanker
It’s “a” wanker, and Sauce is a name thus with capital S, thanks.
Yeah, you can see he is twat from his picture
Are you 12 years old? :/
I find this post offensive. As a proud wanker, I don’t want to be confused with a macintosh user.
Macintosh sauce you are wanker
Macintosh sauce you are wanker
Macintosh sauce you are wanker
Interestingly that appears to be on the other side of the sensor i wonder how much space is required to make it work ?
It may be initially prohibitive to create this implementation on current form factors
It may be very useful for other applications, scientific and pro video where form factor isn’t an issue for example.
> The recently announced Canon 70D ($1199 DSLR) is the first camera having an on sensor usable phase detection AF area that covers 80% of the frame.
No, it’s not the first. The 100D has that already and you can even already buy it.
I don’t understand all the buzz about it anyway…
yes it is, do a google search. The 70d has a different type of phase detection on sensor, the one on the 100d and every other attempt has been a complete failure.
If you don’t understand it then it must be true. 😀
What exactly does “AF works in light levels as low as 0 EV” mean? Didn’t the GH3’s recent update allow focus to work in -3 EV? I’m assuming -3 is better but I don’t exactly know what that means. (I know what EV stands for but not how it affects focus).
agree… even G6 can focus at -3EV right?
Yes, and even the Olympus E-5 can focus in as little as -2 EV.
Which was also happening in the E3 & E30.
It means 0EV with tracking. GH3 max go down to -3 EV, but tracking has alias been a weakness of CDAF
Sorry for the typo (my iPad spellchecker is playing tricks). Correct sentence is : GH3 may go down to -3EV, but tracking has always been a weakness of CDAF.
GH3 doesnt have pdAF
AF gets worse in poor light.
You quote the contrast AF System. That was enhanced in G6 and E-P5 for low light.
But what we are talking here about is phase-AF on sensor. This ist new for m43 and you can’t compare EV values of m43 kontrast-AF and Canon phase-AF.
I think it’s not that very similar. It achieves something similar, but in a different way.
Agree this tech here is by an “trasnperary look” sensor, but maybe by in combo by colour split tech so Panasonic also have. So i think we need wait, eary 2-3 year.
This is in no way similar to the 70D sensor, nor to any other PDAF sensor, for that matter. Panasonic’s patent does not have PD capable pixels at all. What I see here is some kind of translucent sensor with conventional PD elements behind it.
Interesting, though, that even manufacturers which don’t even sell DSLRs (anymore) keep working on phase detection AF. Perhaps the contrast detection AF wasn’t such a good idea in the first place? We still haven’t seen just one slightly larger lens built for CDAF, like a 200mm telephoto zoom with f/3.5 or better, by the way.
This is a patent. I don’t know how many zillions remains on paper.
“Interesting, though, that even manufacturers which don’t even sell DSLRs (anymore) keep working on phase detection AF. Perhaps the contrast detection AF wasn’t such a good idea in the first place?”
PDAF and CDAF are complementary technologies. Both have strong and weak points. Combining them gives the best of both worlds.
Again.
Is somebody who does really understand the concept? Az I can see this sensor is an intentionally low efficiency one to let ‘wasted’ light be captured by the AF system BEHIND the main sensor.
May it called Back Side AF (PD) of translucent image sensor(Feveon had translucent layers)
PDAF on-chip had lost some pixel(but ok ,can’t notice),and they (panny) don’t want lost pixels 😐
Yes i see, but what light, if we remember split colour tech so Panasonic come by an time to back is the maybe, only IR light so be use for AF here.
if you use different focal length microlenses over sensels you can manipulate a contrast detect system into better seeing where a lens focussing system has to travel to reach the strongest contrast by giving the system different data sets at the same time.
That principle is the leading benefit of pdAF systems, as it provides multiple data points gathered at the same instant of time which are used to determine the direction of which way to move the focussing elements.
Without this, cdAF systems have to virtually take a gamble about which way to move the focussing gear, which results in a lens movement action known as shunting, moving the lens in little steps. Which of course adds to the time it takes to achieve focus.
One could argue that, bringing pdAF on sensor to mirrorless systems has the potential to provide the fastest most reliable focussing system. Faster and more reliable than SLRs
Why is Panasonic interested in PDAF, I wonder… They have a few PDAF 4/3 lenses, that are either good in CDAF or remade for m4/3, none of their m4/3 lenses is PDAF compatible and their CDAF is already the fastest ( or second fastest if you like ) in the market.
Maybe they’ll sell this sensor to Olympus?
Olympus has a cooperation with Sony and will receive PDAF from them.
Pana might bring this technology in for Fuji.
pdAF will benefit m43 lenses just as it would 43rds (on m43rds bodies)
Yes and mybe also better C-AF too.
yes b/se it would at last have the capacity of sensing which way AF needs to adjust. But it a lot more complicated than that.
New software has to be written, and new processing powers need to be created. This will mean more advanced EPROM chip coding. And b/se the AF system is behind the shutter the timings are different to SLRs so experience in SLRs is not directly transferable.
Its another game changer in a sense, and make no mistake there will be winners and losers here
“Why is Panasonic interested in PDAF, I wonder…”
CDAF effectively hunts for focus and then fine-tunes it. Hunts very fast, yet it has to hunt. PDAF can estimate distance to the object, allowing CDAF to skip the hunting and jump to the fine-tuning of the focus. Well, at least theoretically.
I have strong impression that people coming from DSLRs think that PDAF and CDAF are mutually exclusive. They are not – they work using totally different input and as such can be complimentary.
MAINLY FOR THE MAR ORGANIC SENSORS?
JUST ANOTHER PIECE OF THE PATENT MAP.
Looks like the sensor is etched from the back at some points to get very thin so light can pass through to phase detectors.
Hmm, there’s some potential here:
* can run independent from image/video recording as long as light reaches the sensor(s)
* no light loss on image sensor
* continuous focus with global shutter systems
Absolute global shutter is also an good point here.
I would urge Pana to leave sensor tech to Fuji , let Fuji do it . Fuji is much superior in the sensor field . Concentrate in improving lenses sharpness especially for Leica branded lenses are much promising .
I want to see a similiar performance of 75mm lens ( not focal length ) from Pana .
* Fuji sensors + Leica branded lenses =
Winning Formula .
Pana made the organic sensor and the mcs array, why would they let fuji handle things?
>”I am sure the next GH may feature exactly that kind of on sensor phase detection feature.”
While it would be a nice feature to have, I won’t consider the next GH camera unless the sensor is multi-aspect.
(Former GH1 and GH2 user now shooting on a Canon 650D and soon to be 70D)