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We are used to read comparisons between “our” Panasonic Four Thirds sensor versus other larger APS-C sensors from Samsung, Sony or Fuji. Now for the first time we can see the Micro Four Thirds sensor compared with the very similar sized Canon Four Thirds sensor. DxOmark (Click here) just published their Canon G1X test. As usual with DxOmark tests keep in mind that they don’t take into account the resolution as variable for their scores. The test shows that the Canon Sensor is more or less on par with the Panasonic. A tack better than the [shoplink 26836]GX1[/shoplink] and a tack worse than the still best result from the “old” [shoplink 14826]GH1[/shoplink]. Soon DxO will post the [shoplink 29074]E-m5[/shoplink] results and I am curious to see if it really will surpass the GH1.
Reminder: David Parry, from Canon UK explained at Techradar (Click here) why they didn’t opt for the APS-C sensor: “We managed to create a four times zoom in a very compact body, and really it has the biggest sensor that we could use and also get decent coverage from the lens. If you made the sensor any bigger, the lens would have to be a lot bigger and it would be much more difficult and expensive to produce.”
I am wondering if the upcoming Canon interchangeable mirrorles system will use the same Four Thirds sized sensor! Would be once again the confirmation that the sensor size Olympus and Panasonic have chosen is the right one for the mirrorless system. Sony has the impressive APS-C sensor but the lenses are much larger and the corner quality of the image mostly suffers with the NEX lenses.
P.S:: The Canon G1X is a fixed lens camera and costs $799 at Amazon (Click here). Probably too expensive to compete against the [shoplink 26836]Panasonic GX1[/shoplink].
68 Responses
Still the GH1 is the best…. when will we get progress!
Lets hope the new Oly hits >65!
I wonder if canon will ever sell sensors to other companys?
RAW output from the GH2, G3 and GX1 are all notably better than the GH1, regardless of what score DxO give…
It’s because DXO don’t adjust for resolution. GX1 has 33% more pixels so it’s not as bad as seems. However another step up in sensor quality would be good – will the OMD deliver it? Or will it be the GH3. I won’t upgrade from my GH1 until it happens.
Wrong, they do adjust for resolution (screen vs. print). The GH1 is better because of its DR, which is higher than any other m43.
> Wrong, they do adjust for resolution (screen vs. print).
And to questionable degree: They seem to use assumption that because of it being mostly random at its source noise gets averaged away fast when downscaling image while in reality heavy noise is always harder to get rid off by just downscaling.
Canon Powershot G10 had ~15MP sensor which was put there purely for pouring more Marketing Pee down consumers’ throats.
After that they heavily cut down amount of pixels to 10MP in Powershot G11 and basically every reviewer capable to telling apart mouth from butt hole applauded it for clearly improved image quality especially at higher ISOs.
Again if you look DxOMark’s “scores for dummies” they would lead you to believe that difference in noise performance is very tiny.
Now download these images and see if they look equal even when downscaled to say lowly ~1.5MP 1400×1050 size.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/G10/G10hSLI1600.HTM
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/G11/G11hSLI1600.HTM
Doesn’t look good for the “You can make party cake also from shit if you have just more of it” theory.
Something like half dozen years ago (+ one, maybe two site redesigns ago) Dpreview had blog post about conflict between this noise downscaling assumption and real world experience with following result:
Downscaling works well only when size of noise grain is at most size of single pixel but the moment the size of noise grain exceeds precise single pixel effectiveness of downscaling suffers heavily.
And in cameras with bayer/CFA sensor demosaicing causes noise in single sensor pixel to have effect to surrounding pixels in image increasing noise grain size always well above single pixel.
I think noise banding on GH1 decrease the possibility of DR (I’m GH1 onwner waiting for my E-M5 🙂
I own both GH1 and GH2. GH1 has a noise pattern seen as bands, which may be distracting for some. However, when I print on a A4 or a paper size that does not need more than 10Mpixels, GH1’s overall low light noise is less than GH2. (GH1’s ISO numbers shown in the camera are wrong as GH1 understates it’s actual ISO sensitivity, so I am using the measured ISO, instead of the camera value http://www.eoshd.com/content/323/explained-the-panasonic-gh1-s-750-iso-advantage-over-canon). Especially, dark or underexposed areas are very noisy in GH2 even at ISO 160. http://www.laesieworks.com/digicom/panasonic-lumix-gh2-noise.html
E-M5 will NOT be >65.
It’s in the nature of how DxO tests.
But it doesn’t matter because I have my eyes to be the judge of IQ not figures.
Up to now the E-M5 is very close to Fuji XPro1 and on par with Sony maybe even better if you consider lenses in the equation.
It doesn’t need to be a 35mm (FF) replacement.
If FF is what you need then you wouldn’t look at m43 anyway I guess.
Keep on dreaming
I guess you’ve been away too long 🙂
You seriously think that the E-M5 will beat both Fuji and Sony in terms of low light performance, dynamic range etc.? I find this very doubtful.
Im sure the EM5 has more quality than nex7 and fuji , not just the sensor thing u need to think in the optics too !!!!
SONY & FUJI. NEVER WHERE AND NEVER WAS A RIVAL OF ZUIKO LENSES !!!!!!!!
Zuiko is tottaly better in everyway !!!
The difference between Panasonic and Canon is virtually nothing. Canon had years to come up with something better and they haven’t. If Panasonic is so useless, why doesn’t the Canon do better? Or perhaps they’re both doing incredibly well and people are just never satisfied eh?
Canon lost position as maker of best performing APS-C sensors to Sony years ago.
Or maybe they are both doing not so well…
Who would really clamor for Canon sensors. Seems Canon has lost their engineering mojo in this department. Look at the 5DIIII numbers. Pretty lame compared to new Sony sensors.
The canonG1x sensor truly has potential. It’s weakness is the fixed/weak lens they used. Otherwise it’s a formidable rival to 4/3 and Apsc.
Sure it’s a rival to 4/3, why not? It’s slightly larger, Canon has a lot of experience.
43 sensor, adopt the m43 mount and canon would be a formidable player in the m43 market. If they made full range finder body, that would be nice, and with Oly and Pany it would provide a full range of options for users.
Sometimes it’s difficult to understand what you are trying to say. Today, for instance, in your last sentence you say: “Probably to much to compete against the Panasonic GX1.”, did you mean to say “toO much…” and even so, what exactly are you implying? GX1 is much better than G1X? or you mean the G1X price is “too much” to compete against GX1? I understand English is not your first language, hence this is not a negative criticism, just trying to help.
Thanks for making me notice that. I corrected the sentence on the fly with my iPhone 🙂
wait up, how come you can fix posts on an iPhone and I can’t? or has that changed?
G1x s the same sensor as 7D, 60D etc, just cropped…
You cannot “just crop” a sensor.
It’s the same sensor technology as those cameras….
Why not?
I could quite happily use Four Thirds lenses on a Nikon FX sensor, and extract an image from the bit that gets illuminated by them.
So this is what Canon does with the G1X? Use the 60 sensor with a smaller lens? I don’t think so.
Sensor are not just a piece of silicium you can cut smaller and voila, you have a smaller sensor. You can reuse knowledge and components, but you need to design the sensor just as you would for a new one.
off topic but:
Conn’s just called… my silver E-M5 w/ 12-50mm is there to be picked up! Woohoo!
(Sadly I am not in Ireland at the moment… and my cousin has to take care of this… which means I won’t be getting my camera before May 13… but still! Considering the current shipping times 2 weeks seems pretty awesome!)
Ok — maybe your cousin is willing to unpack it and do the initial testing? If he/she reports experience to you, please repost it to 43rumors! 😀
I would. But my cousin will leave the camera in its original packaging. He’s not what you would consider a photographer anyhow.
Admin, Four Thirds means the size of sensor diagonal measured in 16 millimeter units, and only that. On that scale, the Canon is a 3/2 sensor, not a 4/3.
It looks like you insist on the novelty of calling Canon’s 3/2″ sensor a four thirds sensor for its 4:3 aspect ratio, but then you should consistently refer to all the tiny 4:3 point and shoot sensors as Four Thirds, shouldn’t you?
(And BTW, the GH1 you mention here would not be a Four thirds sensor if measured by aspect ratio)
I think it’s more b/c of the similar size.
Well, among the widely distributed systems, the Canon is much closer in size to Sigma’s Foveon sensors than the Four Thirds. Why not call the Canon a Foveon Sensor then?
Because the website is called “43rumors” not “sigmarumors” ?
That surely doesn’t render green as blue, or a 3/2″ sensor as a 4/3″ sensor, does it?
Because it is closer in size to the sensor in m43 as already pointed out, but also the concept – a smaller high quality camera. They certainly do not compete with Sigma.
But, seriously, why even waste time to whine about semantics when there isn’t any confusion?
Because we are lucky to live in an age where trolls walk the earth, only now they haunt the internet instead of the shadows under bridges…
Surely I’m here only to waste your precious time, Mr. Important 🙂
Lame comeback. That’s not even what I said, but what you concluded. 🙂
I’m sure Admin has all the time in the world to piss about with petty crap like this… 43 came as a name because of the ratio and thats that.. the fact it has other paramiters is null and void…
I wonder why Canon’s “confirmation” is required that the FT/mFT is “The Right Size” of the sensor? To each their own I guess…
to me it is the lens mount, as much as the sensor size, that defines “micro four thirds”
Waiting for E-M5 results. They must be higher than GH1.
Got my $149 E-PL1 from Cameta camera today. From the smell I can definitely tell you that it was not produced in 2011 or 2012. It must be old overproduce. New cameras do not smell like that. Also it came with Firmware 1.1, whereas 1.2 was released in August 2011.
Slightly OT, but here goes:
To be honest I don’t really care that much about how many points the E-M5 scores in tests. As long as the initial tests indicated a significant improvement over what I currently have (E-30 and E-PL1), it was more than enough to make me take the plunge and go for it. What I do care about is the pictures it delivers, and so far I’m really pleased with the results I’m getting from mine. Managed to get one (black kit) from the first batch to turn up in Norway last week.
Basically, I can get away with ISO 3200 and even 6400 with some work, I can also get a lot more details out of shadows and highlights. What I didn’t expect was how effective the new five-axis IBIS turned out to be. I managed to get a reasonably sharp 2 second exposure of a little stream, hand held. I also like the weather sealing and build quality, gives me peace of mind whenever I’m out shooting and the weather turns bad…
No suprise here, Canon has as much “evolved” sensors as Panasonic. Which as was shown on D800 vs 5DMK3 is bit like 1-2 generations behind Sony.
I think OM-D results will be better than GH1.
This is kind of old news, isn’t? THE DXO canon G1x review is from january!!!!!…you wrote they just did publish their review…whats up Admin?
They just published G1X lens review !
I am beginning to doubt the quality of DXO mark reviews as in tests with actual pictures the Canon G1X has looked better then the GX/G3 sensor and here we find that it is almost neck and neck and that the GX1 has better low light which has not been seen in any other tests!
Furthermore their review of the Mark III puts it way below the D800 even at low light. Now I know video tests are not part of the tests but the 5D Mark III noise performance for video is far superior to the D800.
I’d rather judge a camera by the output I see, than numbers crunched by someone else!
Even Canon’s APSC sensors score lower than Sony’s APSC sensors on dxomark. Look at 5D III and D800 scores. Same sensor size
BS. There is no way that GH1 can compete with G1X’s RAW files. DxOMark is out of track. EM-D is another story, but GH1? Come on!
not that i own a gh1 – but I remember on DPR looking at the files and it was the only (untill OMD) 4/3 camera that had proper blacks/dark colours at night – not stupidly grainy in the shadows, which the EP3 and G3 and even GH2 have…
GH1 came out nice drak shades with wayyyy less noise in shadows – and good DR!
I’de take a GH1 sensor over any other if I could… (assuming no loss of readout speed)!
I own both the E-M5 (for personal) and the D800 (for work). The D800 is amazing and deserves it’s high DXO score, but if I’m not using it for work the E-M5 is so much fun and such a cool camera. DXO test are kind of worthless in my opinion.
Olympast, I envy you!!
1. Sensible evaluation of DXOmark – it is worth looking at but not the truth
2. Having that gear. I am planning for a X-pro1 (street) + D800 (landscape), but am not mentally prepared for such heavy investment.
I heard you miss a lot of shots on the streets if you use the X-Pro1 with AF.
wanna try MF or the EP1 kit! – not Ideal but still perfictly usable…
Note that DXOMark uses an adjusted ISO rating, basically giving anything with a smaller highlight headroom a higher “measured ISO”.
It seems that the G1X (USD $799) would best be compared to the GX1X (GX1 + 14-42X, USD $950). Can’t really directly compare value of a fixed lens camera with a camera body, but those two match up pretty closely.
I have previously speculated that the Canon G1X and Panasonic GH1 share the same sensor. Their properties in terms of size and resolutions are very similar:
http://m43photo.blogspot.com/2012/02/canon-g1x-sensor-size-same-as-gh1.html
That would sure piss Oly off…..
“As usual with DxOmark tests keep in mind that they don’t take into account the resolution as variable for their scores.”
Wrong!
DxoMark normalizes results to 10 MP, so resolution is taken into account. But it is not a mark per se.
Well I just called H and B Digital where I had a 14-42 kit on order, they said they are getting them in today and will be at my doorstep tomorrow. I’ll believe it when I see it, but its better news than Amazon for sure. FYI I placed the order with HandB yesterday morning after having two kits on order from Amazon since Feb 7th and still no ship date. Give them a shot….they seem to have estimated dates for the 12-50 kits early next week and the silver kits not long after that.
now if only I can find a pany 25mm somewhere!
Gh1 is the connaisseurs choice hold on to yours
I’ve resisted the temptation (so far) to buy a new camera and have been concentrating on buying lenses. My GH1 seems to do quite well up to about 1600 and I haven’t noticed the banding until I start pushing to 3200. Also, video isn’t that big an interest for me, but by the time I’ll be able to get my hands on a GH3 (NEXT summer maybe) I think I’ll ready to move up.
Just go at your own pace, ignore the marketing people who are only chasing a bigger BMW.
BULLCRAP!
“Sony has the impressive APS-C sensor but […] corner quality of the image mostly suffers with the NEX lenses.”
Of five cameras produced one has corner quality issues with a few lenses.
Your paint brush is a little wide there Admin.
Peace,
Bill
DxO takes resolution into account.