If Fuji is ever going to acquire or “invest” in Olympus than it’s certainly because of the very profitable endoscope division and NOT because of the camera business. Reuters reports that when asked about a possible investment in Olympus Kouichi Tamai (head of Fujifilm’s medical systems unit) said that “Until we know what will happen to Olympus as a company, it would all be theoretical, so we don’t know“. The news here is that indeed Fuji is clearly interested in what’s happening around Olympus. The only thing I can add via my source channels is that indeed Fuji’s name is floating around the Olympus headquarters more than any other big names.
One more thing: You already know that in February Fuji will announce their new LX mirrorless system with the first camera having an organic sensor. Actually it’s an APS-C sensor that beats the image quality of ff sensors. There is a rumor saying that to cut the production costs Fuji is willing to sell sensors to third parties. As Olympus is having a good relationship with Fuji I guess there is a small chance Olympus could be one if not the only one using those sensors. It would suddenly let make a quantum leap forward. Couple that with the new Olympus viewfinder technology and …..keep dreaming 😉
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How would an APS-C organic sensor relate to mFT lens systems? Once again, mFT has the compact lenses with higher quality optics being rolled out, but APS-C is where the sensor activity is despite being slaves to over-sized lenses.
For combined small bodies/small lenses mFT is clearly the way to go. Panasonic needs to step to the plate with a 5N competitive sensor available to Olympus for the long term health of this format.
you can take the APS-C sensor and cut the size into MFT inside the camera. Who cares about the remain part, if you get the best MFT-sensor?
That would be the silliest thing that Olympus could do.. The price of the Fuji sensor will be very probably MUCH higher than the double cost of a typical 4/3 sensor (my guess would be >5 times more).
So you would spend a little fortune on a sensor only to cut half of it away. The resultant camera would be badly overpriced – probably approaching the price of the new Fuji system, but still significantly worse IQ..
IMO it’s an utter pipe-dream.
The bits I have read out on the web about the Fuji “Organic” Sensor do NOT say that: “Actually it’s an APS-C sensor that beats the image quality of ff sensors.” I have read very conflicting assessments on this frontier. So I cannot take Admin’s quote to heart or that the info is reliable. Above he states it as fact…and without further evidence…it is very far from fact. It is VERY MUCH to be seen that this new APS-C sensor from Fuji beats anything. Sorry …but true. I am going to wait on the sidelines for this one…before running any touchdowns. There is just no info to back a claim like that and then to start speculating on the unknown sensor in an MFT body..now that is pretty funny!
Obviously if it were true..then a MFT-size sensor of that type would be a big improvement…but…… lets see the beef first before we go making hamburgers. 🙂
Totally agree, “beats everything” is often marketing BS, or (like Foveon) relates to one or a few very specific properties. I certainly hope Fuji is on to something, but I’d like to see it first.
I haven’t even seen anything (except rumors) that say the sensor will be based on the new organic technology. The last reliable news I saw about organic sensor was that it’s still in development and mainly suited for smaller sensors.
We probably read the same article:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/12/21/Fujfilmorganicsensor
deleted
deleted again. Keeps posting in the wrong place.
Everybody would pay >200,- $/€ more for the same kamera (E-P3) with much better sensor…
No ones ever done this. This is always brought up by dreamers who have no idea on how to build a camera. Until someone does it, it just internet blah-blah.
Mft clearly the way to go for small … Not necessarily. The organic sensor supposedly accepts light at extreme angles, so for wide to normal lenses, at least, they can be small.
I agree. I think this is just a rumor to which the admin is adding its spin.
Harold
There are many readers in this forum that dream of what benefits could bring a possible acquisition to the Olympus m4/3 products, but all those possible buyers (except Panasonic) have their own different strategy for this segment, and I’m afraid they may not bet on the Olympus one if Oympus is not already making money with it. Even Panasonic would not be a great choice for the future of m4/3, because it would mean end up with another system with just one manufacturer.
I hope Olympus manages to survive by themselves
Fuji’s sensors are APS-С sized, not the m4/3. And if they have really revolutionary technology, they would never sell that tech to competitors.
Fuji could easily make a smaller version with the same technology. And Olympus would easily sell larger numbers with their version of the sensor than Fuji will sell of their (likely much more expensive) LX camera. So it would certainly make sense for Fuji to make a special version for Olympus. Especially if they acquire some Olympus shares…
So naive. You know, if Fuji came up with a well sought out new product, like say, a chemical based photographic material, they would never sell to anyone using other equipment if they followed your small thinking playbook. Do you think Fuji is Canon or Nikon? Do you really think they have enough volume to support a new APS-C sensor? Idiotic, truly idiotic. Most likely, Nikon will be a partner of their sensor if it’s truly revolutionary. Olympus… less so.
The best Olympus can do, is and do camera division better. 😉
If Olympus would take this sensor and use just the inner MFT part, Fuji can make the best and big FF-beating kameras, Oly would have the best small and APS-C beating Kameras.
But for me, it is not iteresting to beat anyone, I would be happy if there is a new, better sensor for the system I love, MFT!
> Oly would have the best small and APS-C beating Kameras.
…sure, but for the price of a FF camera, judging by the recent Olympus’ camera price policy..
You think they would take more then 2000,-€?
Maybe you don’t like Olympus!
In other words , a sensor that produced clean & clear images under ISO 3200 at standard aperature , F2.8 ( without rely on smaller F to have better images) is enough .
This will be great achievement in MFT world if Oly or Pana can deliver it .
I think the R&D cost of the sensor is a significant investment in the new sensor, as much as production cost, making a 4/3 size sensor would only involve minimal modification on whatever their original size
I wish this would be true.
Can’t wait !!!…
But if Fuji LX or organic-sensored mFT-camera kit(fast kit) price will be more than 2,5k$, I’m off 🙁
What we already know about the Fuji LX is that it is not micro four turds. It is APS-C at a minimum and some rumors suggest APS-H. Price will certainly be higher than 2500 USD for the body, as this camera is aimed not at common peasants such as yourself, but to the godlike who often buy a Leica M
I agree, burn the poor…
one of the advantages of the fuji organic sensor is manufacturing price. Don’t think you right
They will need to recoup R&D, plus the premium pricing for that market sector will keep the price above 2500
Roast them with potatoes instead and feed them to the even poorer!
> The only thing I can add via my source channels is that indeed Fuji’s name is floating around the Olympus headquarters more than any other big names.
Rants skipped.
The only positive outcome I see: Oly teaches Fuji how to do QA of cameras before release. In worst case: Oly learns QA from Fuji, and start releasing unfinished cameras with lots of quirks and buggy FW.
> Actually it’s an APS-C sensor that beats the image quality of ff sensors.
Actually the most interesting (to me) part of organic chips/sensors is the manufacturing costs and yields.
Few publicly available materials I have seen before suggested that one of the main advantages of the organic CMOS is the manufacturing price: the chips and sensors can be manufactured very cheaply.
Second advantage (at least first working prototypes had; essentially tweaked printers) is that the size of the chips can be trivially scaled up, meaning theoretically cheaper FF/medium sensors.
Admin, are you sure that the LX system will really have this organic sensor now ?
As at DPreview Eric Fossum stated that research should take a few more years, according to the advancement of Fuji’s recent patents.
Thank you, I hope you feel better and are less overwhelmed now 🙂
There are already the likes of Sony that sells their sensors to it’s competitors and of course Fuji could sell theirs as well.
I do not trust the rumor saying an organic APS-C beats FF in IQ: a) easier said than done, b) a new sensor technology will be un-mature and it will take time until it’s full potential is reached.
Nevertheless I am curious about the Fuji LX – it may be really something. Sadly the Fuji X100 and X10 are concept cameras: Excellent in some aspects, but also with several drawbacks. I need a camera that is more mature, with “child sicknesses” cured.
m4/3 is the best compromize, but improvements in dynamic range, usability and maybe resolution is really needed! The IQ can be a bit lower than, say NEX-7, as the best m4/3 lenses are superior in IQ, weighs less and costs less.
“E-7, the world’s first organic camera” – I like that idea. I want to buy that camera. I want to cuddle it and make sweet love to it.
I just hope the sensor doesn’t get wasted on a PEN…
Oly at this moment is probably without the funds to do any developement, why they are looking for a buyer, and anyone who buys Oly is going to kill the SLR and may also kill the Pen focusing solely on PAS
PEN cameras have been profitable, so there is no reason for Olympus or any new owner to pull the plug. I suppose E-5 will eventually get a mildly refreshed successor, say in 2013, with some new features that were introduced in m4/3 cameras in the meantime. And P&S destiny is lies in the hands of new management. They’re doomed anyway…
The Pen is so profitable that Oly’s Imaging division is bleeding money like an arterial wound. There will be no 4/3rds refresh, that system is dead already. Whoever buys Olympus will probably kill the imaging division, or sell it off separately (about the only way I see the Pen surviving) to make sure the bottom line stays in the black. I’m afraid that m4/3rds will soon be a Panny only thing.
I doubt any camera makers make most of their Point and Shoots, most of them seem to look the same. And it cost a bunch to sell a Point and Shoot for the camera companies. With the low price point, high expectations, and smart phone it seems in every pocket there is not much money to be made there. Even Canon is changing their approach to the Point ad Shoot market.
If Olympus is sold it the camera part will be an after thought for the purchaser, but that is not to say that it will not prosper. From what I have seen I believe that Olympus will have a preferred stock offering that will provide recapitalization for it and not allow a take over. They actually do have cash on hand so they really aren’t broke, well at least financially. The real problem is if commercial customers believe they are systematically corrupt, this will kill sells; and even prevent better companies from acquiring the company in whole or part.
unlikely
+5
So Fuji LX having an organic sensor is now reported as fact?
I don’t remember understanding all the surrounding speculations like that.
But one can hope it will be like that.
Another day another dream….the problem with current 4/3 (and m4/3) sensor nowadays is their performance in low light that prone to noise if we crank the ISO up….some say this is due to the barrier in physical size of 4/3 sensor or because panasonic is just too lazy to research and develop another way to lowering the noise…..once we get past the 3200 ISO ‘noise’ limit barrier or 6400 (if you feel it’s more adequate) then there’s no point to complaint about 4/3 sensor performance….well DR aside….If this so called Fuji organic sensor could provide it and Fuji willing to sell it to Olympus then by all means make it happen…..I’m actually less interested with new VF ‘gimmick’ … after fix the sensor may be Olympus could focus to much more needed attention problem, such as ‘cross-type’ like CDAF so we can avoid misfocus ? or lowering the price of EP-3 and E-5 it surely will work as temporary solution….
Dicey low light performance is why some of us buy fast prime lenses.
As far as these new rumors go… it’s like reading NY Times articles on new technology with a sentence at the end saying that something “might” be brough to market in 3 to 5 years. It all sounds cool, but until there’s something I can actually acquire and use, it will remain a curiosity.
Sorry dr of fourthirds sensors is compact camera level, the reason i sold the E-5
I worked for Fuji for 25 years. They construct their own internal rationale about quality issues, and then believe their own hype.
Anyone remember “Super CCD”? They claimed superior image quality because of how they arranged pixels differently than everyone else. They claimed resolutions far higher than everyone else, as if these were native. Then it was discovered that all they were doing was interpolating the data between pixels to create a larger file. Testing revealed that their image quality was not dramatically better than anyone else’s.
Don’t believe the Fuji hype until it’s demonstrated, tested, and proven.
> Don’t believe the Fuji hype until it’s demonstrated, tested, and proven.
Thanks, Rich.
P.S. The same with the PDAF-on-sensor cameras. Lots of hype by Fuji. Yet, when cameras were finally released, owners on forums discussed it and tested it, and generally concluded that the PDAF mode has no measurable effect on the AF speed/precision compared to the CDAF mode.
Any tech that goes into M43 or APS sensors WILL come out in 35mm chips if the tech is worth it. Thats the only way to get costs down to a reasonable cost.
So don’t think for a minute that an APS sensor will get better dynamic range then a 35mm chip. It’s just not going to happen. I’m ok with that, I shoot for my clients with my MKII as my “meat and potatoes” camera but I also shoot with my EPM1 when the job allows for such freedom.
For me I use the Pen as an additional too to capture photography that my MKII fails at and that is candid portraits. The EPM1 works really well as it is and if you understand the camera you can really, really squeeze some excellent quality from the small chip.
I’d like the dynamic range to get expanded just a bit more with the small sensors and I’ll be able to use the Pens more often with jobs which would be great. I love using small cameras.
Since I shoot mainly for publications they don’t need super high resolution and by the time it makes it to the web it would not matter if I shot with a iPhone.
Can you tell what cameras I used on these shots? – http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2011-12-08/news/home-built-aircraft-thrill-and-kill/
Haha, keep dreaming. It will never happen! Why would Olympus go from always being dissapointing to suddenly please everybody after so many years.. Does not make sense. I tell you this, Olympus will disapoint you this time too, as they always do.
Disappointing only if you need a bigger sensor, which in most cases on a forum, is only a Freudian hang up.
I’ll join the majority here and say that I don’t expect much from either Olympus or Fuji… Olympus does not need revolutionary sensor or viewfinder, they first need to make more body shapes and add features that competitors have had for quite a long time. And Fuji? They’ve been after Leica crowd with their recent high end cameras, so I don’t expect them to suddenly go for sub 1000 USD/EUR market. Let’s see what CES brings…
Not sure where you get the idea the new Fuji’s are using their organic sensors…
its speculation yes but Olympus needs sensors and Fuji wants customers
micro43 and apsc compliment each other, Fuji is smart enough to see this
oly and panny will be offered this sensor
but not nikon and canon at first,they will see their faithful flock to fujis new technology….he he he ….fuji will make a rangefinder styled body and a slr styled body, much like panny does with the gh2 gx1 that share lenses and mount
wait and see….
future camera historians will note this was the beginning of a sea change in the camera industry, Fuji is poised to take over the world
and im glad for it
fujis x10 is 600 USD….fujis x100 is 1200 USD fujis new x will be 1800 dollars GOD BLESS EM
with a modest lens , you read it here first
Is an organic sensor anything like organic fertilizer?
😉
Just kidding!
It would be interesting to see a new Oly with a sensor that is a disruptive technology. Oly also needs to address some of the other features in their product line including capabilities that they have already included in several different products but not yet integrated into a flagship camera.
Maybe when they say “organic” they just mean no pesticide.
“It would be interesting to see a new Oly with a sensor that is a disruptive technology. Oly also needs to address some of the other features in their product line including capabilities that they have already included in several different products but not yet integrated into a flagship camera”
Perhaps the most important scenario for OLY regarding their E-X line is to redeem themselves after the release of the E-5. Olympus themselves may believe the camera is great, and there are in fact some great things about it, but it let a lot of people down.
Olympus needs a redo with the E-5.
I suggest a Fuji/Oly relationship to resuscitate the flagship 4/3 line. Fuji supplies the sensors for Oly, employing the new technologies seen in the X-pro1. The combo would be insanely good. With a respectable sensor, pros would have a huge incentive to invest in the pricey Oly glass (which is pricey but worth it).
Or, here’s another idea: Fuji and Oly work together to create the world’s first affordable medium format digital system. Over 40MP, under 3k (as of 2011/2012, this would be a great price).
Crazy ideas, perhaps, but I can sit around and daydream about designing my own camera systems all day. My ideal camera does not exist yet — hope it is not too far off.