Our reader Fabrys found that interesting interview with on a french blog with a guy from Panasonic France manager (Luc Saint-Elie). He says that Panasonic will never make a PRO camera system. Why? He answered that pros and experts camera system do require a different customer service infrastructure.
Although Panasonic has a broadcast video segment it looks like they will not start a new pro photo adventure. I don’t know if this really matters for you 43rumors reader…
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70 Responses
I think people get confused about what a ‘pro’ camera system actually is.
Panasonic could still come up with a high-spec, weather sealed etc camera. That doesn’t make it ‘pro’ system.
Haing a ‘pro’ system means that if you camera fails on a model shoot on location in Hawaii you expect your manufacturer to do something about it.
Having a worldwide support network like CPS is what does it and I can see why panasonic can’t see the market for and don’t want to get into that.
+1 There’s a massive difference between a competent enthusiast system and fully-functioning pro system with all the support that entails.
+1
Not to mention the cost. ‘Pro’ cameras are $5k easily. Do people here really want to spend over $2k for their 70-200mm (equivalent) lens?
Additionally, Panasonic has done a fairly piss-poor job at managing their consumer line, from design to marketing and distribution. I can’t imagine them getting their act together for a professional one without some drastic changes.
What I want out of Panasonic is solid gear aimed at enthusiasts – not pros. There’s a big difference. Unfortunately, they’ve recently been catering only to beginners/P&S upgraders, and that’s probably where this desire for a ‘pro’ system originates.
give admin a break. he is trying to sell cameras here. if you would relax this definition a bit he can get higher priced items moved on this site. of course amazon does not sell pro systems. little shops do. they don’t give commissions to blogs tho. but that is not the point. it is hard enough to get men of a certain age to think they are pro with the diminutive size of the m4/3 system, but let them dream and above all let them spend money at amazon all without the life insurance hassle of having to spend a few years in iraq or libya shooting atrocities. they just want to outwit their wives with an x instead of an f this season.
You mean little shops like B&H and Adorama? Yeah, tiny…
Having pro also means image quality that stands with the best out there.
Unless the task requires – and this does not apply to the vast majority of professional photo work – why would a professional photographer (i.e. someone whose livelihood depends on photography) want to compromize the final result?
I Accept and like m43 for what it is: small, light, flexible, relatively cheep and capable.
I don’t agree. The E-P1 had better image quality than the E-3. But who was the Pro Camera? The E-3.
Because of:
High Frame Rate
Weather Sealing
Wireless Flash
Battery Grip Option
Faster Shutter
150.000+ Shutter
Pro Lenses available
These are the PRO features in my opinion. Or maybe in Olys opinion…
Maybe the E-3 is not a pro camera then?
To answer this question, ask yourself under what circumstances would a pro photographer chose the E-3 over the competition.
And indeed why should he?
A pro camera is simply one that is accepted and used as such by professionals.
E-3/5 is pro level in build quality, but below Canon and Nikons prosumer models in image quality, viewfinder, high Iso, autofocus, frames per second. I’m sure it can work well for many pros and Olympus have some really good lenses, but it’s not what I’d call a pro class camera.
But at least semi-pro?
NEX7 does not look pro to me, especially with current lenses availability.
+1. by pro system, the mean pro-mangagement-system as is hinted by their response. I would say that a pro camera is any camera that has the ability to shoot raw photos and mount lenses.
If they don’t have a pro-system it would show that they don’t take it for serious – the m43 !!! It would never go over the gadget status.
Olympus has a Pro program so you’re wrong!
m43 is allready long past the gadget status.
The profit revenue derived from a pro system is probably very limited?
However, the profits from a truly awesome GF1 successor (not the GX1) could be quite plentiful… And many pro shooters might like it.
How exactly is the GX1 not a GF1 successor? It’s basically the same camera but with more features and better IQ.
And I agree that many pro shooters might like it, it being the GX1. There are many professional applications where portability is king.
You’re right Andrew, I even use the E-P1 professionally.
Like some thread above. What makes a Pro Camera?
The Pro membership of Olympus is needed for the exchange of your gear etc. So IMO it’s service network AND camera in that order.
The E-5 is Pro, as are the E-3 and E-1 before it.
I think the confusion is that many consider the ITEMS that gives the person/photog a Pro appearance in contrast to what really is Pro about a Pro.
From the way they’re talking they seem to mean a literrally professional system, as in one that caters for working photographers in terms of both hardware and after-sales support. This is *very* different from a system aimed at enthusiasts…
I agree. There is a support system for pro shooters with Canon and Nikon and I don’t expect this from Panasonic. A “serious” system for enthusiasts is really a different story.
Panasonic supports their professional video stuff. Looks like the lone fighting photographer is to small to fit in here…
I didn’t expect any company to show even worse marketing than Olympus, but yet it happens. With all the talk about the GX1 and no priority to ship before X-Mas and the talks about “no pro” in a way to put of enthusiast as well they’re really destroying all the advantage they had in mirrorless cameras. This interview sounds for customers like “ok if I ever want to buy a more advanced, “pro-like” camera, the m43 system will never cater me. Freaky customers want to feel “pro”. Although Pana’s strategy may be right, they communicate it in a disastrous way…
No PRO system doesn’t mean no PRO level gear. A pro system is simply beyond gear. Half of a pro system is service.
Then they could have simply stated that while high end products are in their plans they don’t have system for offering professional level of service and support.
Is telling the truth instead of puposly misleading the customers “disasterous communication”?
The GH2 may not be a “PRO” camera, but it sure seems like a lot of professional footage is coming out of these things.
what about the GH series………
if i want pro im using my 1ds.
there is nothing better then a DSLR.
Does PRO imply a larger format? (Going to ignore elite cameras eg hasselblad and focus on top of the range DSLRs)
If so, there is definitely room in the professional market for a mirrorless, larger format (FF or APS-C) camera. I think that DSLRs will be antiquated in 10 years. Camera design can be greatly simplified by removing the mechanical mirror system. So there is definitely an opportunity for Panasonic to employ it’s knowledge of mirrorless cameras upscaled into a larger body.
If Nikon and Canon do not evolve they will go the way of the Contax.
Who know’s who will be the leading camera manufacturers in 2021? Now might be a good time for Panasonic.
If they did, I hope they wouldn’t stunt the growth of micro four thirds to avoid cannibalization of the PRO format!
It’s bad marketing communication
Good riddance,just spouting a lot of marketing-BS with no meaing is not a good thing. Why do people complain when they get actual information instead of being treated like morons with marketing speak?
m4/3 is enthusiasts’ system. Pro means big, heavy and expensive. There are enough “pro” systems on the market, but the ones with small size and good image quality are few and far between. If you want to earn money taking pictures and making videos, look elsewhere or don’t complain about compromises that come with m4/3 camera and lens size.
+1
exactly.
As a high-end enthusiast i will still want a weather sealed body – but will not want o have “PRO” body as i’m not willing to comprimise size and weight that are needed for a system to be pro.
Also, pro system requiers PRO lens like olympus 14-35 f2.0 lens, which are H U G E
@ Miroslav.
How wrong can you be.
Pro means you need a support network, and a camera system supported by that network. Olympus always had a good support.
Despite the E-P1 not being “pro” I use it professionally.
The E-x camera’s ARE Pro and supported by the Olympus pro service OGPS.
You need to prove you’re a Pro too.
The requirements you can find here:
http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/oima_slr_ogps.asp
Panasonic can’t even make cameras as good as the NEX-7. A “Pro” discussion is pointless.
And before Sony released the NEX-7 they couldn’t even make cameras as good as the GH2…
And I’m sure that will be the case with the release of the GH3, and then the NEX-8 and then the GH4, and then the NEX-9 and then the… you get the picture…
It’s kind of odd to be negatively comparing a camera that has been busily working for over a year to one that is still unavailable…
As for the superiority of the still unavailable camera…. we’ll see.
That NEXstation is as much pro cameras as PENs.
Only couple settings are available with direct control, all others require menusurfing, traditional four way controller has just been disquised as those dials/wheels.
I don´t need pro support system..but I would like to see a multiaspect full frame senzor in mirrorless gh2 styled body with oled wievfinder and all that nice technology that panasonic has in it 🙂
I don’t think Panasonic will make a PRO camera at all, because the company knows its market segment and definitely do not want to make expensive products compete directly with D-SLR that may not have good sales.
Yes , panasonic need to come out something to counter It’s rivals . A pro system as establish by someone is brilliant but must without compromise the size of it’s original .
I like the theory of Fuji’s organic sensor capable to rival full frame cameras , Panasonic should look into this .
If they do, they risk losing the pricing they do (initial price= 1/3rd more than what a camera sells for in a few months) and can’t do the variety of cams with the same tech but with a different name.
Why ruin a good thing? 😉
It’s clear just from these comments that there is no consensus even on what a “pro system” IS.
I agree with Panasonic that it would be a foolish waste of resources to chase a market segment that is so vaguely defined.
I think Panasonic and Olympus have found a nice niche in the cameradjungle with the m43 system where good picture quality meets small size. If you are a PRO you go for the best system you can afford, size and weight is not that important. I think there are quite few PROs out there though with a PEN or a GF1 as a backup camera or preferred camera for personal use. Panasonic and Olympus are sure capable of making pro cameras, but it will not be m43 size sensor system for sure.
I don’t get why people constantly claim that pros (as in working pros) all need or want big gear… For many professional applications compact high quality gear is hugely valuable – hence the legendary status of Leica M amongst photojournalists…
Exactly Nick.
Even Pro’s know compromise.
They use the best gear for the job.
But that doesn’t mean they use the highest specced or best IQ’d camera, that’s a myth only sustained by NON Pro’s.
I use (m)4/3 and rent gear that isn’t economically viable but sometimes neccessary.
> If you are a PRO you go for the best system you can afford, size and weight is not that important.
Wrong, real professional of every work area would want the best tools for that particular job!
Define “PRO”. Do you mean weather sealed, heavy, built like a tank? Or, what 99% of us want… a view finder, better sensor, full control and speed speed speed in a GF1/GX1 package.
A high end, m4/3 flagship, camera is still not a PRO camera! Neither is the Sony NEX-7. “PRO” on this site is mis-used. We are talking about enthusiast high end here. m4/3 will never be the choice for mainstream professionals. Those buy Nikon D3 or similar Canon – or larger MF cameras. This is about 96% of the PRO market. for them the amateurs high end can be a back-up or casual camera. (Please no silly remarks about the E-5:-))
>>A high end, m4/3 flagship, camera is still not a PRO camera! Neither is the Sony NEX-7. “PRO” on this site is mis-used. We are talking about enthusiast high end here. m4/3 will never be the choice for mainstream professionals. Those buy Nikon D3 or similar Canon – or larger MF cameras. This is about 96% of the PRO market. for them the amateurs high end can be a back-up or casual camera. (Please no silly remarks about the E-5:-))<<
Still wrong. E-P1 can even be Pro if this is backed by Olympus Pro service organisation, but it's not (I ‘ve registered it as extra equippement but an E-x is a must have), neither is the NEX7, but it could be too.
The E-5 IS A PRO camera since it's within the requirements of the OGPS.
Here you go, with your own silly remark.
This is a very useless thread since 99% who react here are amateurs who are not familiar with any "Professional Service Organisation" be it Canon, Nikon or Olympus!!!!!!
Here is the problem ALL manufacturers are starting to face in all areas.
Simply, the pro market does not pay. Not well enough.
Look at what havoc cameras like the Canon 5DII have caused in the pro-video market. As technology gets cheap and refresh cycles remain fast you need a different strategy. You need to sell a lot of product to a mass market fast. Low margin, high volume.
Support for pro solutions costs tons. Volume sold to actual working pros is very small compared with consumer. The best (and becoming only) strategy a company can take is to have strong enough prosumer product that pros will adopt and replace more often. With less costly support infrastructure.
Don’t believe it? Look at SGI. Way back when (think Independence Day)special effects were rendered by expensive computer hardware. Post houses got AMAZING product support from dealers like RFX. It was the way things were. Now – most rendering is done on commodity hardware – often, used for one project and then sold off. Or perhaps if you are a big shop name-brand shop, you have HP or DELL providing all the hardware and co-marketing with you. Either way it’s commodity hardware – it’s driven by low TCO.
Now, how could Panasonic really make more serious money by selling a pro-system with pro support? The ONLY way is if this system translated into better branding and thus more consumer sales. Consumer drives the business. You need a super high-volume low margin product, and a high-volume higher margin product. But there is no room for a true pro-product because few would pay the $$ it would take to make it a business.
> The pro market does not pay. Not well enough.
The pro market is not being charged. I’ve written about this for years. Most Nikon pros would gladly pay US$500/year if NPS actually committed to service and had a reliable and realistic er pool for equipment undergoing service.
The problem isn’t that the pro market doesn’t pay, the problem is that the subsidiary approach that the Japanese companies maintain essentially squeezes out customer service of all types to maintain profit margins, especially when the yen is appreciating against other currencies. Basically, the subsidiaries are given fixed budgets and no leeway to do their own “products.” Couple this with an increased emphasis on consumer product volume, and the pro stuff is automatically squeezed.
However, the more you squeeze like that, the more you enable potential new startup competitors. RED is a good example of that. RED wouldn’t have had much of a chance of getting where they are today if the Japanese pro video wings had been paying attention and delivering true service.
The cynic in me says that Panasonic needs to develop a CONSUMER customer service and marketing infrastructure first, heck with any pro notion. They also make product decisions, like completely changing batteries with each generation of camera, that aren’t exactly consumer friendly.
Totally agree! Just take care of the consumers you have and grow it. Use the same batteries, build up nice products and support, and work with Oly to define and market the single system cooperatively.
Well said. I think its within the capabilities of Panasonic to really move fast into the pro market with a 43 camera IF they market it right. Releasing the GX1 and GH2 they way they do is not going to help much. Panasonic needs to get the cameras into professionals hands first then show the work coming from the pros THEN after some buzz is built up get the cameras into reviewers hands.
For the type of work I do I rent the gear for the job. For my personal work I have a Canon system but am likely to sell it in favor of a small system camera which are very close in quality to the larger cameras by Canon or Nikon.
Most of my work ends up online or in print publications so a NEX7 or GX1 type camera works really well. Plus subjects relax when you have a small camera. It’s much more of an intimate process when shooting portraits as opposed to shooting with larger cameras.
What’s constitute a Pro Camera System?
a. Range of lens (check)
b. Faster Auto Focus (check)
c. Ergonomics (check)
d. Technical Support (check)
e. Bigger body (go look around for DSLR)
f. Ability to create superb image (learn photography, there’s no way you can create a good picture if your technique still suck and you can’t blame the camera either)
People should end the discussion about Pro System Camera in 21 century because it’s irrelevant, there’s only a professional photographer never a Pro System Camera.
Tell me then, why do professional photographers chose otherwise?
Because instead of buying product people as often buy religion.
Even pocket compact can produce award winning photo if it’s good enough for that particular situation and photographer just knows what he/she is doing.
That e isn’t it’s own justification.
But human hand simply isn’t going to shrink just because of trendy obsession to small cameras so when good ergonomy and accessibility of all controls are important big enough size becomes requirement.
But for the interchangeability of the lenses there is no system in place in the first place!
Why aren’t the EVFs usable between Oly and Pana cams?
Is there is a reliable versatile flash that is in line with the sizes of these cams?
Why so many batteries?
Let Pana/Oly make a system first and then consider this “pro” vs “consumer” classification.
Hearing that Panasonic is not going “pro” is a mistake.
1. It is bad marketing to state a limit to the potential of a camera system. Even if you do not want to make a “pro” level system, you do not say so. Instead it would have been better to say
“we are dedicated to making the best camera systems possible and it is our goal to develop the m4/3 format to its potential. Many professional photographers use our cameras now and we expect more to use our equipment in the future.”
2. Not thinking with a “pro” perspective is worrisome in that it indicates a lack of a long term perspective that results in customer loyalty. A “pro” invests heavily in lenses and associated equipment and not being able to use them in the future on future models is a disadvantage.
The case in point here is the change in battery size between the Gh1 an Gh2. If the GH3
or future cameras require a new battery, it reveals a dedication to initial short term profitability and not a long term perspective developing customer loyalty.
3. A “Pro” is going to expect better lenses. Speed and Depth of field are critical tools to an advanced enthusiast or pro. So far it looks like Olympus is turning to the “Pro” direction with its production of the 12mm f2 and the 45 mm lens.
4. Olympus is apparently even going to go waterproof, at least based on the announced production of waterproof lenses.
It looks like Panasonic is deciding to let Olympus have the “Pro” camera end of the m4/3 market and sneak its video cameras into the pro market. It appears that I am slowly drifting towards Olympus for my next camera.
Ok, input from one genuine working pro…
I personally own two Canon pro bodies and for big jobs I rent additional.
I have always shot with smaller cameras alongside my big guns…. Contax T3, Canon S70, Canon G9, Canon S95.
I am looking forward to using something like the GX1 or NEX-7 once I have a chance to handle them.
I don’t really care what they are classified as, prosumer
Ok, input from one genuine working pro…
I personally own two Canon pro bodies and for big jobs I rent additional.
I have always shot with smaller cameras alongside my big guns…. Contax T3, Canon S70, Canon G9, Canon S95.
I am looking forward to using something like the GX1 or NEX-7 once I have a chance to handle them.
I don’t really care what they are classified as, prosumer, pro, enthusiast… But obviously, features and build quality is important.
It only takes Canon a week to fix an S95. I’m fine with that kind of turn around.
Never say never.
There’s Pro and Pro. There’s pro in the sense of Canon and Nikon’s top pro DSLRs, then there’s pro in the sense of a camera that can be used by a professional. Many working photographers do not necessarily use these high end pro cameras which are aimed more at journalistic and sports photography.
Certainly Panasonic need a more robust and higher level of camera within m4/3 for it to be more attractive to serious photographers. To make it more of a one stop system, rather than a more limited adjunct to a DSLR system. Cameras in the territory of the Canon 7D, Nikon D300s etc are used by both amateur enthusiasts and pros. Panasonic certainly needs some sort of presence in this territory, or m4/3 will always be perceived as an incomplete system by many photographers.
I think the camera manufacturers do not understand how enthusiast photographers see camera systems. Even if they don’t at that moment want a weather sealed camera, with higher end weather sealed lenses, they would still prefer to be in a system that had these options. Most serious photographers whether pro or amateur have ambitions, and so their system needs to provide for those ambitions. Without this higher level of camera or lens, there will always be the impression that m4/3 is not a system for serious photographers.
The true pro segment as currently occupied by Canon and Nikon is an entirely different matter. Currently because of sensor size and the lack of a comprehensive lens range it’s difficult to see how Panasonic could compete with true pro cameras. Nevertheless there might be an opportunity in a few years more, when the technology has advanced, and perhaps there is a change in the way coverage obtained with top pro cameras is used in the media.
> He answered that pros and experts camera system do require a different customer service infrastructure.
He probably talks about the real PRO gear as the “business critical” gear.
As I guaranteed to never buy the more expensive support options, I’m not really interested.
Quite a few professionals already use Panasonic 43 cameras so they don’t really need to make a ‘pro’ type camera. Maybe some higher quality pancake lenses.
As long as Panasonic does not stray away from the Gx1 like they did with the GF1 they’ll continue to have many pros use them beside they’re higher end gear BUT if Panasonic wants more pros using their cameras as their main system they need better lenses and more durable cameras.
The noise and quality of the files are already fairly good but as always more dynamic range would be excellent.
I do find this a bit confusing since Panasonic already cater to the professional video market in a way. Maybe having the same branch deal with the professional photography market is difficult, I don’t know. I’m pretty sure there are similarities on customer service infrastructure between its pro-video services and pro-photo services.
This does open up Olympus to cater to the pro photography segment of the market. Olympus might have the capability to accommodate that market. However, if Panasonic heads the sensor development for the m43 system, I’m not sure how Oly can move forward with a pro system without going to a different sensor manufacturer.
PRO probably means D3/1D series type of camera. In this case, then it’s not a surprise that Panny is not going to develop that market and the exotic lenses and support. This also doesn’t preclude a higher spec body that is weather sealed and capable of competing with the high end crop DSLRs.
Lastly, if you want to be strict, the D700 and 5D2 are not “pro” bodies. But pros use them. People get all confused about the many uses of the same word.
Agree, Panasonic knows what it takes to and what it means to have a pro system, and mFT isn’t anywhere near that at the moment. The problem is all the consumers who think Panasonic need to make Pro models when they really just want a bit better build quality and larger buffer (and better sensor).
PRO?
No thanks…
Some of their current lineup of higher m43 cams are already pro priced IMO.
As others have said – depends a lot on what you mean by pro. What panasonic means is that they will not have something like Canon 1D / 1Ds series or Nikkn D3 / D3x series. And of course that totally makes sense. Even Sony is not in the pro market despite having the full-frame A900/A850 and rumored full-frame A99. And even in Nikon / Canon, the models like 7D and D300s etc are not considered pro cameras despite having very sophisticated AF systems, solid build and bazillion features etc.
Now in the rumors lingo on this website a ‘pro model’ just means to a higher-end model with better build and higher specs etc. And panasonic might still produce a camera like that.