I am still not 100% about some aspects of the new “mysterious” Olympus designed (or tweaked) sensor. What I know for certain is that Olympus kept the promise and will not join the Megapixel race which lead Panasonic to announce cameras with 16Megapixels (for the [shoplink 22077]G3 and [shoplink 16254]GH2[/shoplink]). The new sensor has 12.1 Megapixels! I have been told that this is not the same “old” 12 Megapixel sensor which you can find inside the current Olympus PEN cameras. The sensor has been “tweaked” (and some sources say “redesigned”) by Olympus. What that word “tweaked” means is a big and yet unanswered question.
The second news is that the new PEN cameras will indeed use the new TruePic VI engine which has two cores. Olympus worked on all aspects of the camera, sensor, internal circuity, imaging processor with the main goal to increase the dynamic range and ISO performance. Sources said that we should expect an image quality that is at least on par (but more likely even slightly better) than the current top [shoplink 17163 ebay]Olympus E-5 model[/shoplink]. First reports I received from testers said that there is a visible step forward in image quality (with pre production models and unfinished firmware!).
In summary, Olympus may made a bit of mess with the product naming and specs (See for example missing tilt screen on the E-P3) but we have to give credit to Olympus for working on the key aspects where many of our 43rumors wanted to see an improvement:
1) That sensor is designed by Olympus and that means that they will no more have to rely on second generation sensors from Panasonic.
2) It’s nice to see that Olympus worked to improve dynamic range and ISO performance instead of increasing Megapixel numbers.
3) AF speed is amazing. And that’s going to impress many potential m43 buyers!
4) Finally some amazing lenses! The high quality 12mm f/2.0 and the cheap ($299) and fast 45mm f/1.8 portrait lens.
Overall I am very happy with the steps Olympus made with the new PEN’s. Of course there is still room for improvement. But guys, they are finally going in the right direction or not?
309 Responses
Yes, these are good news! This megapixel race has no sense!
I think a month to buy the EPL-2, but after hearing this good news will wait for more …
what I would be sorry to lose the flash E-PL3 (the rumors seem to be saying this) but we welcome good ISO performance, tilt display and dynamic range.
excuse errors, but my English is not good 😉
*if it goes wrong and they are not happy with the new models PEN, is not problem …. E-PL2 to lower the price probably!
do not you think?
Actually Olympus has money problems so they HAVE TO do well. But it’s looking like the E-PL3 will definitely be better than the E-PL2. Don’t forget the tilty-twisty screen! Micro4/3 is the future for many people so i’m sure they will sell plenty, and have a few more surprises in the future. It’s Olympus !
Ahh… today’s revelation is here!
Let’s wait and see. I sure hope they’re aiming higher than the E-5, because its dynamic range at base ISO doesn’t seem to be any better than that of any other 4/3 camera of the last 5 years.
Was exactly my initial thought.
Hahaha, or maybe not. Maybe they just say “hey, we have the same IQ as our big bad ass flagship dslr camera” which is of course an empty statement…we’ll see…
My initial thought too. Isn’t the E-5 pretty much the same quality as the current line of PEN cameras..? I’m expecting it to at least match the new offerings from Panasonic…
Okay, perhaps not. The E-5 is looking better than the GH-2 and E-PL2 to my eyes. Keeps up with the Nikon D7000 up to ISO 3200 as well.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PanasonicDMCGH2/page20.asp
“Keeps up with Nikon D7000up to ISO 3200”
You don’t mean noise and DR, Do You?
DXo dynamic range E-5 = 10.5, ISO 519
DXo dynamic range D7000 =13.9 ISO 1067
Leica m9 one of the camera with the best output is 33 in the ranking of dxomark…how can u belive them????
Actually I do. I you downloaded e-5 raws from d7000/k-5 you would realize how far behind the e-5 is in dr and high iso which validates dxo. Maybe they made a mistake with that leica bu I can say all my four thirds cameras do match ballpark what try say
..”Maybe they made a mistake with that leica”…maybe I’m a UFO..:)
Leica sensor score is 69 (500D is 63), nothing wrong here. This score is based on mathematics, nothing wrong here. Images may look better then higher scored sensors, nothing wrong here.
So no UFO you just misread Dxo.
this shot http://raist3d.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341dff1d53ef01538f4dc31d970b-pi should of been framed a little bit higher, I don’t think your subject would appreciate you making her arm look fatter…
The M9 is one of the worst cameras at high ISO currently available in 43 to FF sensor range.
It is pretty decent at base ISO, though it has noticeably less DR than a D3x. It also has no AA filter which adds a lot of acuity and pixel-level contrast (though also aliasing often enough that you’ll notice it).
Exactly, enough about DxO. What their calculations say and what I actually see are rarely the same. You can have bar charts if you like, I’ll trust my eyes.
+1,000,000
I’ve tried DxO Optics Pro… and I’ve compared their RAW-processing to Olympus Viewer/Studio. In my eyes, Olympus Viewer does the color processing much better. OK, dynamic range might be a problem, but Oly Viewer gives us a lot of correcting possibilities. DR is always a challenge in certain constellations no matter what sensor. Instead of blaming engineers I’ve always tried to make the best of the possibilities given. I’m still convinced that Olympus is the best equipment for my needs.
Yes, I was referring to noise at high ISOs. DR is another thing I’d like improved, but for me better performance in low light is more important. In those comparison shots on dpreview, the E5 is beating the D7000 at lower ISOs and matches it until around 3200, to my eye at least.
I can’t wait to see the first leaked image of an E-P3… I’ll be in the States in July, it would be just awesome if the E-P3 would already be in shelves then… Let me dream, don’t ruin it for me…
12 MPx – good news!
Better high iso – even better news!
12/2.0_AND_ 45/1.8 – the best news!
Thank you OLYMPUS!
admin, any chance to ask the sources how mzd 14-150 performs on these new lightning speed AF cameras?
I believe Admin is just reiterating what has already been said about the lenses here:
http://www.43rumors.com/ft5-olympus-12mm-f2-0-for-800-850-45mm-f1-8-is-not-a-macro-lens/
and not that the cameras will come with those lenses.
Fact is that when you increase Mpx count, you get better performance at High ISO to the expense of DR and noise at base ISO. Probably we have reached a Max with current technology.
Wonder if it is a real multi aspect sensor like the GH1.
Huh? Care to elaborate?
Base ISO is, by definition, has the best S/N that a sensor has to offer, and is related to the efficience that the chip converts photons to electrons. If a chip is more sensitive then the base ISO will be higher.
Higher pix count allows you keep the detail after you crop the image, it has absolutely nothing to do with DR, and low noise.
I believe he’s trying to describe something that’s highly complex and making it more confusing than it already is. He is also wrong about reaching a max with current technology. I see no evidence of that being true.
More pixels, in and of themselves, are not necessarily a bad thing if you compare equally. Assuming 100% fill factor and good ADC, there would be no difference in light collected, but you’d be getting a better set of data to work with (more samples). BSI is moving us towards 100% fill factor and on-sensor ADCs have gotten really good (at least with the Sony sensors). That’s why some of us say we’ll shoot with a D3x up to about ISO 800 or 1600 (depends upon who you ask) instead of a D3: when you compare 12mp output from both, the D3x actually has better dynamic range at base and equals the D3 at the high end. The D3s changed this relationship by another stop, so it’s not so clear cut, but current sensor trends imply that a D4x would do the same thing again, despite an increase in megapixels. Moreover, at the high end you have the ability to hand pick sensors and build expensive support circuitry to keep the signal clean.
“Base ISO” is often not what people think it is. It rarely is the lowest ISO the camera can set (though the smaller the sensor, the more likely that is). We’ve seen some sensors that have a true base of as high as 640. Camera makers have been doing a lot of “behind the curtain” adjustments to sensor data, trying to balance the full demands they see of their system. There are plenty of things to tweak: gain, Bayer filtration, ADC, you name it.
Well in fact I was very aware of that with the 620 base noise, which had worse denoising than the PL1.
There was a paper by an astrophysicist at the Uni. of Chicago, who showed that Read Noise decreases with high Mpx, but the efficience is better at higher ISO.
That explains why makers are making the base ISO higher, but also why it is noisier.
Don’t assume that you level of ignorance must be shared. This has been mentioned hundreds of times at DPR.
You really never showed the relation of making the higher iso. As for Thom ignorant that is so laughable in more ways than one. You don’t even know his background or who he really is do you?
I was not answering Thom but Sully. None of your tricks.
The theory I mentioned, about Read Noise, is what has allowed to increase good ISO with MPx, despite noise.
However noise at base ISO has increased with the Mpx race. That’s probably the reason why Oly doesn’t want to up them.
I see no answer to this argument.
My base of knowledge in this area comes from astronomical cameras, which are more than a little bit different from photographic cameras. But one thing that we really care about is S/N. In fact, its all we care about.
So, I kind of chuckle at all this talk of ISO: its just a scale factor. The number of electrons that the photosite produces for a given number of photons aren’t changed by the ISO, and that’s the key factor for S/N. And output amplifiers? Please! You are just adding noise. Maybe not a lot, but noise nevertheless. This becomes very clear when you look at DxO’s helpful graphs. Just be sure you know what they mean. I get the feeling that most people just look at the top-line number, and don’t even look at the graphs.
Now, as to what I was getting to, is that there seems to be a lot of anguish in some quarters about worse performance at base ISO, which seems to be taken as the lowest ISO the camera will tell you its using, even if that isn’t really the base ISO being used. I thought that you were complaining about that, Amalric. Yes, at higher MP’s you do get some advantage (I read that same paper) but there’s an additional cost to the optics that didn’t get taken into account. If a 4/3’s sensor is going to go for high MP’s, I’d rather skip everything between 12 and 100. At 100MP you can start doing some really interesting things.
The answer was given to you ages ago and even steps tonsee it for yourself. I sure ne’er saw any compelling answer to that.
Ditto. I’m very excited at what is a great step in the right direction. Best part, not jumping onto the megapixel bandwagon, kudos Olympus!
“Overall I am very happy with the steps Olympus made with the new PEN’s.”
If it is at worst on par with E-5 then according to DXOmarks nothing changed from E-P1 and 2. I think we just have to face the fact. If someone wants the best ISO and DR performance for that certain amount of money then APS-C sensors is the way to go. Panasonic and Olympus are struggling to stay in touch with the previous models Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Sony released in terms of ISO and DR performance. Even Fujifilm has surpassed m4/3 now. They are a stop behind every time and I predict they will be again with these new Pens…
well,
you might be right.
E-5 isnt top of the notch of image quality regarding mFT/FT…
so when its on par with the E-5, the new PENs wont beat Panasonics G3 and GH2… and thats a pitty. I rather use a 16 MPix camera then a 12 MPix when the image quality is equal…
But i still hope that they managed to improve both reduced noise and DR…
Yes, it seems that G3 and GH2 are better than E-5 so I don’t know about the advancements that Oly brings with the Pens. We’ll see. But I should note that JPEGs may be better. That is a different story. I’m talking about RAW though, and that seems pretty difficult to improve for Pan/Oly
That’s what i’m thinking also with regards to their statement on quality being on par with E-5…
All known today is JPEG quality, DXO is about RAW…
It hasn’t a thing to do with the sensor size – not in this comparison. It has to do with manufacturing capability.
Ryan
Yes I agree and based on these rumors, I don’t think we should expect too much from this “tweaked” sensor
H
Yes absolute, but sensor type, Sony, Canon and Samsung use is CMOS sensor, but Panasonic use NMOS.
Difference by the 2 type sensor is many aspect, but on by the is CMOS need more power and is better on noise so NMOS is.
It is good news about the sensor but the bad decisions about the new camera body designs mean I will not be buying into the four thirds system for the tine being.
The mini pen has no hand grip or mode dial, the epl3 has no flash and the ep3 will be out of my price range 🙁
A “tweaked” E-5 sensor isn’t going to cut it.
Either the sensor is as serious kick ass as the GH2 or I’m out. I really don’t care about instant AF, the GH2 is pretty much instant to me, (in fact the G1 was already fast enough).
BUT I’M GLAD they chose to stay at 12MP! 🙂 That would really be good news for DR and SN ratio on a new sensor.
My G1 (and my friend’s G1)…randomly focused at all in moderately low light. Consistently unreliable…was a very frustrating experience. And this occurs in less than challenging situation. Consistently, for both of us.
I got rid of my G1 for that reason (I still own my GF1)..and was excited to hear about the GH2’s focusing abilities…but am waiting for a more photographer’s offering (non-video) that is more cost effective.
Faster more reliable focusing is a plus no matter how you slice it.
You can manually focus too in low light, I do quite often by choice as I don’t want to alert my subjects (humans but would equally apply to wildlife) with the beam that I’m photographing them…
Non video m43 won’t happen and would not be cheaper.
Exactly. A lot of these extra “features” are done in software with little in the way of add-on or video optimized hardware.
There are very few people who would buy a camera today if some sort of video wasn’t in the bulleted feature list. Like 4-wheel drive, it doesn’t matter if they EVER use it, or even know HOW to use it, because it’s such a comfort to have available if you MIGHT need it. 😉
It’s sad to think that Olympus is holding up E5 IQ as some pinnacle to be reached. If that’s their thinking, I fear all they’ll be doing is cementing their position a niche also-ran.
Indeed! If the R&D was not done, it would not be a simple add on, but it is, and they spent a fortune on developing it. Video is now considered a standard feature, even among “hard-core photographers” in general, many of which put video to better use.
They are not creating a rarity by depleting any models of video, they are shooting themselves in the foot.
you said it, ssj_george !>
sad to hear that Oly is satisfying itself with the comparation to the E5… E5 is still technology of the past and what people want is progres…
and as people don’t want to wait a few more years, for the m4/3 technology to catch up, they rather go a step up in the sensor size, as I did :>
there is much more big companies, money and R&D behind the development of APSC sensors. that is the reason, why I am saying APSC is there and m4/3 ain’t there yet…
yes, I know, great lenses, but that don’t save you from blown out highlights… and I guess you should be tired of keeping saying this for some years now, and still olypan lags behind. (as it allways will)
the size, glass, features, even the quality of the soundrecording are better than apsc mirrorles, however the most important thing, picture quality stays a bunch of compromises…
call me a troll. but then you’re nothing, but just loyal fanboys unable of critical objective thinking
If you are unable to get good photos of existing cameras/sensors, you’re a poor photographer.
true…
+1
In all honestly all DSLR’s and CSC’s produced in the last 2 years have been good enough for me. I’m obviously all for continuing improvement, but if the E5’s IQ is so poor that it’s hindering your photography then kudos to you.
All cameras have limitations, it’s the photographers job to work around them.
(irony) Olympus’s high end optics must neither be good nor expensive enough… (/ irony)
That’s true but it doesn’t preclude having better canvases of light. Thy e-5 is Venus the times sensor wise so it’s good news Olympus is moving the sensor forward
+1
APS-C is just another small sensor size, if i want better image quality i would go fullframe
Gs1, I would sell my kidney for ff csc camera, but unfortunately all the current ff cameras are HUGE (and my body parts won’t suffice to finance a leica)
that’s why mft and ff is the best combination, mft for daily work, ff only if required
OK, Pablum. Your a TROLL! Thanks for the permission. 🙂
The problem is that in terms of usability and form factor, there is no system camera equal to Micro Four Thirds.
Samsung has nothing appealing other than a camera with APS-C sensor and the same is true for Sony.
In the end, you may end up with slightly better image quality on an APS-C camera, but the amount of good photo opportunities lost because a NEX simply sucks in usability, has no EVF and no lenses to be noteworthy.
Also, there are even Magnum photographers using P&S cameras who make much more interesting photographs than what I see on your Picasa stream. I won second price in CBRE Urban Photographer of the year this year with an Olympus E-520 (which has a Four Thirds sensor even older than the first PEN!). Face it, it’s not all about the sensor and how much blurry background it can produce, so boring and mediocre images still show off that you used a camera with a larger sensor!
Congrats. 🙂
When I got my E-620, I seriously pondered about E-520 also. It was a very well made camera and I LOVE the grip (though E-620 is sexier). I eventually turned to E-620 because the LCD screen is one generation newer and E-620 did have some compelling upgrades, but E-520 is really great in term of usability.
I don’t think the judges at a photo show judge your photos by the camera you use, but by the quality of the photo you submit. A lousy photo shot with a Leica is still a lousy photo, let’s face it. I think that’s something people should wake up to.
It’s nice to have better gears. We all want our photos to be a little better, if it’s the gears that are dragging us down.
I don’t agree with your opinion on Sony cameras though. Sony have VERY interesting cameras, just not NEX series you’re talking about. A580 looks very compelling to me. Their flagship FF A850 is also very good value. However, it’s the general expensive price tag that prevents me from going by Sony route (yes, A850 is cheap by FF standard, but the lenses you need to buy to match the quality of the body are really expensive…).
In any case, Nikon sensors are just tweaked Sony sensors…. So I don’t understand the response about Olympus’s tweaked Panasonic sensor…, as if it’s a sin or something.
there is a lot of positive things to be said for blown highlights photography and composition wise 😀 if you you really need more dynamic range there are simple work arounds such as under exposing a little then bringing up the shadows/darker areas in post processing or can always bracket your shots…
YOU CAN NOT PRINT MORE THAN 8EV ANYWAY! micro four thirds is in the 10.2- 10.8 ev range
“YOU CAN NOT PRINT MORE THAN 8EV ANYWAY! micro four thirds is in the 10.2- 10.8 ev range”
That’s irrelevant. The 10.something range is linear, before any tone curve is applied. Depending on the tone curve, you can squeeze many more stops in 8 stops of output medium DR. As an example, look at the current feature image on bythom.com
you can’t currently squeeze more dynamic range into print.
You can map a larger DR to the print’s DR. But there is no standard way to do it because if you do it linearly, it will make the print look flat. And that’s usually not what you want.
lookina at the pictures of nex +16mm..i see worse picture than my epl1 and 20mm…I’m really really sorry Pablo..but Istay here, and pls to come here every time repeting the same story..
“sad to hear that Oly is satisfying itself with the comparation to the E5… E5 is still technology of the past and what people want is progress…”
Err, can you show me where Olympus have done that? The posters here have surmised that, but that doesn’t make it so.
Terrible news. What I read between the lines is that this sensor actually IS the same old 12.1 MP sensor used in all current Olympus cameras (not so surprising after the GF3 using it too instead of the one n the G3). They first “tweaked” it in the E-PL1 to improve resolution (by using a weak AA filter), noise (by improving noise reduction in the JPEG engine) and DR (by underexposing and then bringing up the exposure in post to prevent burnt highlights a bit).
Now it seems they “tweaked” it a bit more to improve autofocus speed (by using dual core processor).
In other words, the sensor is the same. Only the things that surround the sensor see improvement. But that is just not enough. The sensor of the E-5 is the same as all others, same IQ too.
All our hopes mostly gone… 🙁
As Maley pointed out, the “same old sensor” is actually 12.3 mpx, not 12.1. This could very well be something totally new.
I don’t think that small difference by itself is very meaningful. The same sensor can use a slightly different number of effective pixels for different reasons.
In any case, I do hope you are right. It would be great to have a truly new sensor. But I think that expectations should be low after what I read (“tweaked” sensor, same IQ as E-5,… plus the GF3 using the same sensor).
Time will tell.
I have a question for all E-PX owners: How do you actually use the camera? I’ve got an E-P1 and while I liked the image quality and the in-body stabilisation, I can’t for the life of me figure out how not to change any settings while carrying the camera… I always touch one of the wheels so that when I take the camera to my eye it’s set to something like F16 and 8 seconds shutter speed instead of f2.5 or something I dialed in previously (I mostly use aperture priority).
The question is largely academic because I’ve already switched to a GF1, but as I still have the E-P1 and would like to keep it in the family I would still like to hear your answers!
Regards,
Alex H.
There is a problem with the ISO and WB changing when you carry the camera. The four way controller really needs a stiffer spring. Apart from that, no problems.
I found by getting a leather case for my E-P2, that it made it less likely that I would change settings by accident, since you fingers are raised from the back of the camera. I also changed the keypad to set the focus point, rather than be WB, ISO, etc. I am more likely to notice if the focus point is changed than WB/ISO. I do wish Olympus would show the ISO it is going to use on the various live view screens as well as aperture and shutter speed.
I look probleme, fine a grip on camera and use the normal you take camera.
I use only Pen bage to my Pen camera.
but i use not lens over 5-600gr. or ca.1 pund on my Pen also.
Do I have AF with the Sigma 50-500mm (Four Third version) on a M43 camera?
I have a lot fun with this lens on my e520.
but I want a new camera and the E5 is to expensive.
great news. I’m definitely not going to buy a G3 anymore
bert DR and High ISO is definitely what i want from my new sensor.
12MPx are good to me, and my hard disk.
“What I know for certain is that Olympus kept the promise and will not join the Megapixel race which lead Panasonic to announce cameras with 16Megapixels (for the G3 and GH2). ”
You make higher resolution sound like something bad. For magazine spreads, 16-18 megapixel is minimum if printed in 300 dpi. Of course this can be achieved by enlarging pictures in Photoshop, but since magazines these days are produced by a very small staff, there is just no time for that. It was not until EOS 5D2 that this issue was solved for me and resolution was sufficient. Higher resolution also means that pixels noise at high ISO will be smaller and less visable. So please stop implying that more pixels is because of a the evil megapixel race; it not, rather because the benefits of higher resolution.
i think not many magazines use 300 dpi, except in japan…
In magazines you talk about screen frequency, measured in lines per inch (lpi). A normal screen is 150 lpi. However, for certaing reasons, magazines tend to want 300 dpi images. This gives them a certain “safety margin” for slight cropping, among other things. However, you can easily get by with less. When I worked at a magazine, I routinely took full page images with the E-1. We even had covers taken with a freelancer’s Canon D1 (4 MP) that looked excellent.
You are right that higher MP count is not necessarily bad. But higher MP count can be bad, and it seems that Oly engineers feel that they can get better IQ out of the sensor(s) they have access to by staying at 12. There’s so much more to IQ than MP count.
Enlarging a picture in PS takes all of 10 seconds. Nobody will know the difference going from 12 to 16 MP. I routinely print 13×19″ with E-PL1 and they are on par with 550D which is 18 MP IIRC.
If mag spreads are your main interest, do you seriously take a m43 cam? I’m an ambition- and talentless hobbyist, i feel m43s are for me, but as a pro? M43?
Good point Henrik. Alot of us are just hobbyists and M43 suits us fine. Its all about a system that balances sensor and lens size.
Good call Henrik
If you are working on commissioned work for magazines you should be confident about what camera system does the job for you. Why are you interested in MFT then, if this obviously does not fit your needs?
By the way, you should take a look at the PEN Giant TV commercial. Notice the large canvas prints made from E-PL1 images. Seems to work for them…
Irrelevant, since extremely large print sizes don’t require much resolution because the viewing distance is so far back.
+1
Mr Hipsta, Only, on (4/3) 12 mpx and 300 dpi giv 10×13,333inc or 25,4×33,867cm large so A4?
So we talk about A3 or larges.!
All true (your criticism), m43 is probably not the choice for commercial work par préférence. I don’t even own one, but I would certainly like to have one to follow-me-everywhere because of the hight ratio between (image quality) and (weight and size). ;o)
I still think though, that higher resolution don’t necessary have to be a bad thing, if noise and dynamic range also can be kept or be improved.
E5 is not as good as panny’s m43 offering?? What a load of trash here. To all the people who denigrated the E5 they should check the various reviews by independent reviewers. Most of the reviews concluded that the E5 is an excellent camera, even better than the already excellent E3. Some had even implied that it is better than APSC offerings from various competitors.
Some posters have problem comprehending the article of this rumor. This “tweaked” sensor is not the sensor of the E5. They need to re-read the article.
Great news. DR is 1 big limitation on current m4/3 sensor, let’s see some sample image.
Absolutely true. E5 is an outstanding camera. Extremely capable, fast, reliable, weatherproof. Don’t believe all the garbage here trashing it. It’s on par with a d300s, and that’s pretty damn good. And yes I have shot with both.
I feel this is positive but not surprising.
The old sensor had 12,3 MPX so they actually reduced the resolution. Thats a hint that it is really a new sensor and not just the old pen sensor. The e-5 sensor did really have amazing details for 12mp but the rest sucked, so i guess this wont be a real step forward neither in terms of dr nor in noise but we have to wait and see.
GOOD CATCH! The sensor used in all Pens and E5 is 12.3, not 12.1. So this “should” be a new sensor, tweaked by Olympus.
Some speculated (see comments below) that this is a tweaked GH1’s sensor. It too had 12.1MP.
Not necessarily. Effective pixels are often different than actual sensor pixels, and it could be that effective pixels of the upcoming cameras are different, but the sensor is the same. DPReview used to list effective vs. actual pixels of cameras/sensors, haven’t checked lately if they still do.
It will be interesting to see a comparison of the new 12 mp sensor compared to the 16mp sensor.
At some point I hope there is truly a revolutionary change in the sensor technology so that we can get more dynamic range out of the MFT format. We do have very good performing cameras and lenses at this point with more on the way! Getting more dynamic range in this format would be the most desirable improvement for this photographer. I love the small size of a MFT kit.
there could come a time when you have so much dynamic range that your work will not look photographic anymore 🙁 so be careful what you wish for…
well…I am not looking for infinity on DR…but if I could have a MFT with the DR of an M9…that would be happenin. LOL!
I agree. DR is a red herring. Most sensors have more DR than the final JPEGs use, anyway. In photography (especially in digital photography), images get some boost in contrast to look better, and by doing so the DR is reduced greatly. If you want more DR, shoot raw and reduce contrast to the minimum. You will have a lot of DR, but the image will look like sh*t.
Just look at most of the multi-shot HDR images from Sony cameras. They don’t look good, and certainly not like photography.
Limited DR, limited DoF and even noise in night/indoor shots are part of what we understand as photography. The limited DoF was a technical limitation that was overcome by small sensor digicams. And then people realized how much better it is to have a limited DoF and spends thousands to buy cameras with that feature (vs. cheap digicams that “see” like the human eyes).
In the future you might have to add noise and limit the DR in images to get the photographic look. Otherwise they will look as boring as life itself.
I guess we will have to wait and see how the DR and ISO perform against the G3.. Hope its some kind of a “redesigned” sensor, and not just the same sensor using the new hardware…
Still want to see a 1 stop improvement in DR and ISO vs Ep1/2!
Glad Olympus has the balls to say “no” to the megapixel race, and concentrate on actual image quality over pure megapixels. (Yes, I’m aware that improved IQ and higher MP are not not necessarily mutually exclusive concepts.) Higher DR is exactly what I’ve been hoping for, and I hope better ISO performance doesn’t mean that they are compromising low-ISO performance to improve high-ISO performance.
Olympus is definitely going in the right direction with the new cameras and especially the new lenses.
Finally there some very interesting lens to hit the micro4/3
I always feel they have good bodies but overpriced platicky so-so lenses.
The 12f2 metal body looks sweet. i hope the 45 1.8 would became the plastic fantastic of the m4/3 range. and of cause the very desirable 25 f1.4
More MP = crap if you don’t have proper lenses to support this.
Very few lenses can resolve more than 12-13mp on a 43rds sized sensor and none exists in m43 mount 🙂
What’s the point of GH2/G3 sensor with more MP when realistically noise and DR performance is virtually the same.
Yes, it’s got “better” sensor in a sense that it’s got more megapixels (which doesn’t make a difference in IQ) and similar noise/DR to 12mp model, so there’s virtually nothing gained in such sensor.
Much better idea would be to make same megapixel count sensor as a previous generation (12mp) using new technology, but which is improved over the old one giving better DR, color sensitivity and high ISO.
This is what Olympus did with the G1 sensor in E-5 (and newer Pens).
While E-5 has “same” sensor as G1, it’s much better at both DR and high ISO (in real life conditions and not some random DxO test using unoptimized proprietary raw converter).
“Very few lenses can resolve more than 12-13mp on a 43rds sized sensor and none exists in m43 mount ”
Utter BS. There is more detail captured by mounting a lens (any m43 lens) on a G3 vs a G1.
No.
Have you tried it? Show me samples of “more detail”
That’s all false the gh2 does have better iso and dr an the current 12mp. As for lenses that can support the resolution well rey are coming out now by both Olympus an panasonic
I want to see if this new pen sensor matches the gh1 or gh2 sensor which are the eat four thirds has.
Working on enhancing DR while not playing the MP race so keeping IQ under high ISO under control is the very right approach. Smart move, now I’m excited.
That’s true. Conceptually it sounds like a brave decision, based on photographic considerations and not marketing bs. The question is…will they deliver? Fingers crossed…
Set of positive news. Oly is known to be able to squeeze maximum out of a sensor. If this is GH2 sensor technology + Olympus tweaks, we can expect a big step forward compared to old 12MPx one. Pity they haven’t gone back to 10 or 8 as Canon did with their G11 compact.
“Pity they haven’t gone back to 10 or 8 as Canon did with their G11 compact.”
That would lose customers because the market has deemed that very old & just wouldn’t sell, so I think the 12.1mp will be low enough to be still be a challenge for Olympus Marketing. DxOMark will still do their tests & people will take their results as gospel (unfortunately). I’m sure Olympus will bring out great JPEGs from it, but I also hope the RAW output will be better too. Again I’m not going to leap around with excitement nor am I going to chuck in the towel because it is rumoured (even if it is reliable) they didn’t increase the MP size of the sensor. I am still excited to see what will come with these PENs & the results from them. Reviews will be made of them but some are just done by biased people & others are more honest with their findings so time will tell just how good they will be.
Yeah, Olympus is like Porsche of the camera world with getting most out of small packages 🙂
..and just like Porsche they really know how to milk a design over, and over and over and over.
The first time Porsche really tried to change the design (928) the company nearly went bankrupt…
i dont think pen design needs a radical change. it work great.
with slight changes accessibility can be improved of course.
Interestingly, I looked at DxOMark for the first time today… it seems like the old GH1 sensor has better DR and ISO/noise than E5, EP2, GF2, G3, GH2 (slightly!) also than the APS-C Samsung NX cameras and is very close to the Sony NEX APS-C cameras.
Shows what is possible with a good 12mp 4/3 sensor.
The E5 is near the bottom of that list on those measures, so hopefully they are setting their sights higher than that with the new sensor!
I don’t agree. Sony is rumoured to have a new 24 MP APS-C sensor with magnificent DR and low noise. How can Olympus compete with the old (tweaked) 12 mp crappy sensor?
your right…we’ve forgotten that the competition is going to have twice as many pixels…and proably better DR/ISO 🙂 how akward…
Yeah, save up for some 64Gb SDXC cards. 😉 and even More 3TB hardisk drives.24MP will have huge memory consumption as well.
Just starting dreaming:
Is the old 12 MPix sensor used by the Gh1 not exactly what you can call 12,1 MPix? 😀
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Camera-Sensor/Compare/Compare-sensors/(appareil1)/630%7C0/(appareil2)/687%7C0/(onglet)/0/(brand)/Panasonic/(brand2)/Olympus
Sooo…
it COULD be possible the new PENS are using this old sensor, so multiaspect, with even improved DR and NR ?
Well, i would say, that could be good enough!
Another hint that could be true:
They say: Its NOT the sensor in the old pens, BUT its a Oly tweaked sensor! So Pana has the same, but not tweaked.
Thomas,
I like the way you are thinking. That would be fantastic – imagine if they improved the dynamic to up over 12EV. I just looked on dx0 and the GH1 has the best dynamic range of any Micro4/3 camera.
But do you think that Oly would be happy to wear the cost of the 12Mpix multi-aspect sensor on all their Pen bodies – including the base Pen Mini?
I dont know about that. I hope you are right.
Hi Thomas.
I wonder if we are just being hopeful that it is the GH1 sensor. The new GF3 has a 12.1 MP sensor so maybe its just that Oly has ‘tweaked’ the design of this sensor. That would make sense – its a ‘new’ sensor which hasnt been in any previous Olympus model. I think this is more likely.
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/panasonicdmcgf3/page2.asp
LOL, that will be it. Olympus doesnt even get the better G3 Sensor. Wow, thats really a pity and Olympus should try to get a new sensor supplier.
I know – I had my hopes up that it was the GH1 sensor but more likely the GF3. But I guess we will find out soon enough. Who knows maybe Oly has really improved the performance. If they have great. If not then yes I agree they need a new sensor supplier – especially for any future Pen Pro models. There was a rumor that Samsung was interested in supplying Oly with sensors but who knows if thats true and whether it would be any better. Maybe in the future.
Well Samsungs last NX-Sensor was actually worse than the m43, so I wouldn’t see them as a great hope. I would rather like to see Sony providing them with sensors.
Hmmm… I think that with Olympus’ specialized needs, that their best bet is to design their own (or modify an existing) 12MP sensor. Who fabs it doesn’t matter.
Now, if they can license elements of Sony’s pixels, and incorporate them into their own sensor, you’d really have something. 13EV DR would not be out of the question (Nikon D7000 has 13.9EV DR). Not that I think we’ll see anything close to 13EV, but 12.5 would be a huge improvement, and would make that figure at least be better than the NEX.
Now that would be fantastic. But I dont think there have been any rumors about this new sensor being multi-aspect- admin?
I wonder whether Panasonic would let them have the multi-aspect one.
I am at least hoping this is an option in any Pro-Pen that comes in the future.
If you’re thinking in terms of Oly utilising the GH1 sensor, then maybe it’s a cut down non-multiaspect, faster read/write version of it. We can speculate. 🙂
I would prefer if it stayed as a multi-aspect ratio sensor!
I was just thinking that if it was a cut down GH1 sensor wouldnt it end up with less pixels and hence be lower than 12.1 MP?
+1 Multi Aspect would be great! If we all wish it enough – maybe it comes true 🙂
Instead of three new m43 camera bodies I would have appreciated two m43s and one 43 camera with mirror, e.g. a successor of the E-30 or E-520. I own a lot of FourThirds lenses and I feel quite happy with a real DSLR. My absolute dream sensor would be a 20 MPXs Sigma/Foveon X3 sized 13×17.3mm, but this is only a dream and unfortunately not a rumor.
There was a hint in one of these rumours during the last week or two of an Exx being announced somewhere around September.
And maybe E-XX have G3 sensor on 16 mpx.
If there is an E-XX, it will use the same sensor and processor that is showing up on the 30th, for reasons of economies of scale and 12MP ideology.
Well, so Olympus admit they don’t have the resources to improve the 4/3 sensor. See, the 16 MP Nikon D7000 has waaaay better image quality than the 6 MP Nikons of years ago. In fact it has an image quality that challenges that of Full Frame sensors like the 12 MP one in the D700. And a batch of 24 MP APS cameras is coming. So no, there is nothing wrong with the “megapixel race”. Some companies just are unable to catch up. Like Olympus
That said 12 MP is enough for my needs and I plan to get one of the new PENs (and glue it to the upcoming 12mm). But will will it be enough for the market? Be ready for a fanboy uproar.
amen
Don’t forget that more megapixel need more space on the harddisk/Storagecard – I already have problems to store my 10MP Photos in RAW. So going for per-pixel-sharpness is the right way in my opinion.
That’s why I like my L10!
Right, but you can always select an smaller image size if you don’t want the larger ones. And I don’t know about the PENs but with other cameras this works even for RAW images. And with the proper technique, reducing large images can improve their overall IQ (more sharpness, less artifacts…). So I still see this kind of moves as an ‘ok, we give up, we can’t match our competitors’ message that they later try to market as ‘but we give you lees megapixels because it’s better for you!’. Really? What’s Olympu’ss market share? 10%? So it’s the other 90% wrong? I don’t think so.
> The new sensor has 12.1 Megapixels!
+1
> Sources said that we should expect an image quality that is at least on par (but more likely even slightly better) than the current top Olympus E-5 model.
IOW, nothing really new to be excited about.
I hope they at least used a proper AA filter. I’m not one of those PP junkies who likes to spend an evening dealing with the aliasing artifacts. (Or invest $$$ into tools for dealing automatically with them. Or spend even more time learning photography deeper to be able to shoot in JPEG.)
If they would use again weak AA + diminutive bodies w/o grip + no built-in EVF == Oly heads straight in the direction I’m NOT interested in.
So by not being interested in such things as weaker AA filters, are you then saying that you are not interested in a product that can product sharp results?
I’m sorry, but most people are interested in getting the sharpest results possible from their cameras. The weaker AA filters help in doing that because it is the AA/low pass filter that removes detail resolution passed on from the analogue part of the capture of an image (the lens).
And to be honest, you don’t really have to spend more time learning photography deeper to be able to shoot in jpegs – going further from that, aren’t raw files more difficult and time consuming to process than getting it right the first time when you take the photo in a jpeg?
Your experience might not be relevant depending on what you shoot. Aliasing artifacts and moire can be a huge problem in certain type of photography, especially in fashion with fabrics.
> I’m sorry, but most people are interested in getting the sharpest results possible from their cameras.
As I’m shooting in good light with a zoom, I rarely have to crop.
When I shoot with bright prime, ISO is generally too high and finer details have been eaten by the noise anyway. Regardless of AA filter.
So, no, I personally do not have any use for more sharpness.
> And to be honest, you don’t really have to spend more time learning photography deeper to be able to shoot in jpegs
Try applying 1/2-3/4 EV stop exposure compensation + WB adjustment (== metering failed in mixed lighting) to a JPEG and see the result for yourself.
“I hope they at least used a proper AA filter”
Do you like your images soft, because that is what an AA filter does?
So every single camera manufacturer (except MFDB and one or two other cameras) are intentionally making their images look like crap? Get real, there’s a very good reason why AA filters are used (see my other post above). People tend to wear clothes, and having moire on aunt Sally’s blouse is gonna make the typical MFT customer VERY unhappy.
The E-520/E-620 + 12-60 deliver sufficient sharpness to me. And I’m not a pixel peeper. And nobody studies my photos under microscope/800% magnified to see every darn pixel.
People are looking at the photos for the mood, the emotion and the situation – not pixels.
And yes, in a way I do prefer softer pictures. I did once blur hairs on few images: they came out too sharp (dark hair on light background/light skin), diminishing effect of the facial expression.
look, You get 25mp from analog 35mm frame. FF cameras like 51ds m4 or d3s have just about that number of mp.(23-25) m4/3 is smaller by 2x and even a slight more than that. its basicly most pixel density you can have from that sensor in the sence it produces the best IQ. Another story is how the image is processed inside a camera to get best results. MP dont mean a thing if they are not on optimum number (detail vs IQ) All said every pro camera should have FF and nothing less or more than 25mp. m4/3 is a system of compromise, it can do well and better when they develop some foveon style sensor which gets neglected by all other COs. It has its issues, but benefits are much better than cheap bayer sensors. If they be the first (oly, panny) to do just that, they would turn things around in photo world (if they develop something cheaper than Sigma’s). Yes it’s just that simple. They are draging themselves, and us with pointless improvements and bodies trying to catch customers on really simple and shalow marketing methods. Flip screen (yeah, but not essential) Mode dials, tuch screens… Essentialy we get screwed by them but wanting to get that shiny new body with such a small improvements without thinking that we as a allready Fans and users of bit older cameras dont even get a firmware updates with a feats that can be incorporated in our existing cameras. Perfect cameras are not a myth, it exist in their minds and maybe on prototypes, but they are so scared to present it couse market will be narow down just to it. Its not just camera bussines its any other like automotive. Do you remember the days when cars life time was more than 20 years when one same car was in production for the same amount of timespan. They were more sturdy and practically more safe than now (even without airbags and whatnot) They could be repaired by any skilled man easily. And now what we got is just a plain hell on eart run by industrial laxators (psychology of bullshit)…In pharmaceutical industry we got companies making viruses to keep selling medicines… Humans are perfect products, but with one big bug in their minds, GREED. I rest my case
once again. Do you realy thing they didnt have the knowledge and possibility to incorporate fast AF the first time they released PEN and its lenses (btw its mostly lens problem, as i put 14-42mk2 on my E-PL1 and it was fast as on EPL-2) knowing that other 4/3 cameras like E-1 where worlds leaders in AF speed. Its ridicule on us… and the blame is on us, couse we are like sitting ducks as they target. If everyone expects more and is consistant, eventualy they will see that and probably would produce something really usefull.
d3s has a 12.1 MP sensor!
I was thinking d3x 🙂 sorry my bad not keeping wierd names they all are naming them cameras
the ratio between apsc and m43 is 1,64.
Next sony sensor will have 24mp if you crop with m43 size you’ll have a 15mp sensor with same dr and high iso performance.
Apsc will always lead in mp race but not in quality size race.
pretty interesting. Just like to see the details features of this new lens. E-5 was praised for its image results. Reviews rated image quality above Nikon.
Fast auto focus means fast sensor refresh rate, am I right?
What if the refresh rate is 200Hz, then with smart processing the processor can read 2 separate shots (1/200) at shutter speed 1/100 preserving highlights. With longer shutter speeds the DR would be even greater.
Bracketing with the electronic shutter inside mechanical shutter time? But I’m guessing this is not possible at full resolution or is it at 12MP?
Very, very disappointing. I was hoping for professional-level large-print resolution. You can talk dynamic range all you want, but the single most important element in a photo’s impact (fine art, nature, landscape) is the ability to resolve fine detail. Panasonic took m43 to the professional level with the GH2 and G3 sensors and I was hoping that Oly would be able to follow suit.
Don’t get me wrong, improvements in dynamic range are always welcome, but to freeze advances in resolution is a huge mistake.
Also, high ISO is fine for shooting in bars, at night, or for journalism, but ultimate image quality is always found at the sensor’s native resolution. Why the obsession on high ISO? Most nature/landscape/portrait pros I know shoot at as low an ISO as possible and could not care a fig for grainy 3200 shots.
I will be keeping my E-pl2 for underwater photography, but my next body will be a Panasonic.
Well, for one what you say about keeping the resolution not being pro is a mistake. Nikon’s d700 and d3 have been professional, full frame cameras with 12mp for a while. They CHOSE to make those 12mp even when they could up the pixel count.
Then, as for high ISO obsession – I would think most people using m43 are not nature / landscape pros, in fact, m43 is ideal for street / travel photography, were you just don’t know what kind of awful lighting you’ll find…and then high iso counts – a lot.
Even then, forgetting about discerning photographers and thinking about the consumer market (you know, the ones that actually count to the camera companies in this case), you have the P&S upgraders, a lot of them just looking for a “better camera” to record memories, who don’t know a thing about high iso, but who expect to take good pics indoors or at a restaurant or soccer match, or whatever…
My 2cents.
The current obsession with ever-higher ISO is today’s mega-pixel, megahertz race. It looks great on spec sheets and PowerPoint presentations.
I’ll trade higher ISO for faster lenses and a monopod.
The funny thing is the high-end draws low-end sales, which in turn feeds R&D and production of high-end products, which low-enders may lust for, but cannot afford. Think of guys wearing Mercedes or Ferrari hats and t-shirts while drinking Budweiser. 😉
I generally agree with what you write…but in this case…are you serious about the monopod solution? i don’t see myself street or travel shooting with a monopod…:)
As for fast primes, yes, they are a big part of the equation, and image stabilization in certain scenarios…but, at least for my usage (again, street, travel), high iso still counts. and note i’m not expecting something ridiculous (clean iso 6400), i have modest (for 2011) expectations: good iso 1600, excellent iso 800.
If those are your ISO expectations, prepare to be happy. The E-5 is already there.
I was being a bit facetious about the monopod. You caught me. 😉
800 ISO on my GH2 is quite good. occasionally I’ll shoot at 1600 (passable) or even 3200, but I don’t expect much. I’ve tried 6400, but it looks pretty bad, although pixel peeping details is kind of cool in a heavily pixelated sort of way.
For me fast primes are the the thing and for that manual lenses are the way to go. I also prefer controlling what gets focussed, especially at slower shutter speeds.
Today I found out that if using manual lenses with IBIS it needs to be set for EVERY lens, every time you change lenses and if it’s a zoom, for every focal length. Is that accurate? It sounds like self-inflicted pain to me. I’ll use a monopod instead. 😉
I don’t disagree, Nico. However, even for travel, which does include landscape, architecture, portrait, as well as “street”, for me higher mp is a real benefit. I would much rather have 16mp for ultimate resolution at low ISO and some noise at 1600 than 12 mp with a clean 1600. I used to shoot ISO 50 slide film, you can call me a glutton for punishment! When I want that 24×36 print, 16mp is a real, true advantage.
I do like my e-pl2, and plan to keep for my underwater photography and more casual shooting as it is far above compact-camera levels. But, I was hoping that, with three new bodies, Oly would have gone to the pro level with its sensor on at least one of them, for us more demanding photographers.
12 MP shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone on 43 Rumors, or did you miss the quite widely reported Olympus exec saying last year 12 MP is good enough?
Also, it’s possible or likely that most MFT lenses don’t even resolve 16 MP on such a small sensor.
I’ve said it before: there’s MUCH more to IQ than pixel count.
I agree on your point about low-ISO being more important. But we are not the typical MFT customer, and I bet most are casual shooters who find themselves needing high ISO more often than amateur photographers.
The much glorified GH2 resolves about as much detail as the E-5. No, there is nothing wrong with its sensor. It’s just that the lenses are only as good as 12MP on a humble 4/3 sensor.
I wonder how many people will still be praising Olympus’ choice to stay with 12 mp when Sony comes out with the 24mp NEX-7 and A77 in a few weeks, which will have better DR, lower noise, and of course a LOT more pixels than any Olympus or Panasonic camera?
Here in the USA, I was having a candid conversation with a camera store employee, and he told me that they’ve been told to push Sony above and beyond everything else, including even Nikon and Canon. So not only will Sony be a clear winner in the spec sheet wars, they are being very aggressive in their marketing and promotions, at least in the USA anyway. And Samsung is also ramping things up from what I’ve heard.
Olympus has basically gone no-where since the introduction of the E-P1. The tiny, microscopic little changes they keep making to the Pens, while very cost effective I’ve sure, are not going to impress a marketplace that is becoming increasingly tech savvy.
Tossing the guts of the E-PL1 into the E-3 and calling it the E-5 is a great illustration of how Olympus has just about completely abandoned any real innovation, and instead just keep playing it safe.
While I’m reserving final judgment on the new batch of Pens until they are formally introduced, I’m not terribly impressed from what I’m hearing.
In about a year or two, it will be Panasonic, Sony and Samsung who will be the driving forces in the camera industry, and maybe Canon. Olympus will still be around, making cute little Sanrio cameras that you would buy for your girlfriend.
Olympius
I don’t care if Sony comes up with a 42 megapixel camera. I’m not already invested in their system, but more importantly, their cameras are much bigger and heavier than MFT cameras (or perhaps more accurately, camera+lenses). I’ve heard their UI is not very good, either.
I disagree with most of what you stated.
Sony has a real problem with the NEX system as there are no lenses and no accessories to make money from. Someone who is unfortunate enough to buy a NEX is stuck with the limited choice of lenses they offer, cannot use an EVF and most likely will no be able to use a Flash. Instead they carry a fashion statement around their neck and call that a camera.
I asked the sales manager of the oldest and biggest photo store in Hamburg about the success of the different systems and he told me they can hardly sell the NEX because of the lack of lens options available for the system.
The rumors around Samsung on the other hand are very interesting. But right now they are just rumors. Samsung has nothing. They virtually don’t exist in EVIL. When was the last time you actually saw someone with a Samsung on the street? I see E-PL1s and E-P1s everywhere.
And regarding your E-5 comments: you obviously have never used one yourself before.
I don’t understand all those ignorant people on this site only complaining about the size and quality of the Four Thirds sensor, not knowing about the most basic principles of photography as such (not the technical aspects but the aspects of the art and practice) and fail to see that a good photographic tool is not all about the sensor size and quality. No sane person would choose a car solely based on the specifics of its engine!
As for the Sony NEX, i’ve been following it closely. But the main problem – for me at least – remains: horrible user interface, and non-existent small primes.
Well, we only have a rumor new sensor is improved.
Using this info and adding their own fantasies, 43rumors readers can “scientificaly” come to conclusions, which range from downright Acid pouring to exhilarated bliss over recent Olympus moves.
Can’t we just wait for 9 days more to actually see what is coming?
You do realize you are on a site which has “RUMORS” in its title?
I’m perfectly satisfied with 12 MP, any improvement to sharpness and noise is more than welcome.
Heck, if they had said that they can get clean, usable ISO6400 by going to 8 MP, I would accept that.
Perhaps a separate body with a very sensitive 8 MP low noise sensor would be useful. I’d grab a 12MP body for daylight detail, and an 8MP high sensitivity/DR body for night/street photography.
You may think it’s nice that Olympus has “tweaked” the higher iso and perhaps the dr, but panasonic has managed to improve both substantially while also increasing pixel count. If the new Olys are really still 12 mp, I will either be buying a Panny or waiting for the next generation, not sure which but sure I will not be “upgrading” to a slightly better Olympus.
Have I read well? “image quality that is AT LEAST on par with Olympus E-5”? You don’t need a new sensor nor a tweaked one to get E-5 quality… disappointing AT LEAST.
Oh well, the E-5 has been rated very High on IQ.
It won over several Mid to High grade Canon and Nikons.
I think everybody allready forgot those reviews. The only one not so very enthousiastic was dpreview, if IIRC.
I’m as happy as you Admin. It would be very nice to have a camera with IQ as good as the E5 but smaller, with better dynamic range and better high ISO. I have an Epson 7800 printer and the 22×30¨prints from the E5 files are very impressive, provided they are taken at low ISO. If Olympus has improved the ISO noise just a couple of stops and the dynamic range by one or two stops, we are in heaven. let’s see.
Regards
Hm.. Im sorry, but I´ll wait until June 30, read up on the facts of the new models and then, if there´s no quantum leap in image quality or at least image quality that is on par with my old D5000, then Im going Sony Nex C3.
did you at least atke a look at the horrible nex lenses? no way you can obtain something like the D5000 with a nex.
hahaha NEX
No EVF and crap lenses.
Enjoy!
+1
BUT if they manage to address that…beware…
only excited about the videospecs… admin any news?
Once again Olympus let me down. I just wanted a built in viewfinder. The vf-2 is indeed incredible, but the price ain’t. So that makes all the “new” pens out of the option for me. Panny G3 looks very promising for me now.
Since nobody seems to have made this comment yet by some miracle, I felt obliged to step into the breach…
If you people were real photographers like me instead of a bunch of gearheads, you’d be out like I am, taking pictures with your 1841 daguerrotype outfits and developing them over boiling mercury; real men don’t care about a little brain damage.
How come I read far enough to make this comment, then?? How dare you ask!
Let’s assume for a moment that “tweaked” is the correct term. That implies that you take a current product and change something about it. A modern sensor is a number of things:
* Bayer filtration (can be tweaked)
* Sensel, which consists of Photo diode and electron well (generally mature)
* Photosite, which consists of a sensel with support circuitry (which can be tweaked)
* Data/Power lines (can be made smaller, can be flipped to other side with BSI)
When someone uses the word “tweaked” I tend to immediately think support circuitry. You can, for example, make it offload data faster, which gives you a higher frame rate and helps autofocus (sound familiar?).
So the question is “what would Olympus tweak?”
Tweaking the GH1 sensor sounds like a the most sensible approach, GH1 has it’s problem, Panasonic may give it up for the GH2 higher pixel count sensor, but Olympus may take it up and fix all it’s problem.
Olympus using the GH1 sensor? That will never happen. If you don’t understand why, you haven’t been paying attention.
Shoot, not even Panasonic is using the GH1 sensor anymore, which is a shame, as it would be a wonderful thing to put in the new “pro GF” varporware camera that is rumored to be coming.
Then we can all put in our pre-orders and wait six to twelve months for Pansonic to get their act together enough to actually ship the pro GF.
But don’t worry, I’m sure Olympus will make more than enough of these new Pens that Amazon.com will be blowing them out for $299 a year from now, regardless of the model. My goodness, they are still trying to push new-in-the-box E-P1’s, and those were discontinued what, maybe a year ago?
It’s tough to be a micro 4/3 system user: we get tons of stuff we don’t want, don’t care about; and no where near as much of the stuff we really want to buy.
Olympius
People, dont you get one simple thing. Apart from a slightly different ratio of the sensor on Panny cameras there is not a thing that differs it from sensors put in Oly cameras (providing they have the same pixel density). It’s the same sheet of sensor stuff just cut in a different ratio and produced buy the same brand and that is Panny. The only thing that differs is Procesor.
Get it now 🙂
Well, what really needs tweaking at Olympus is the very poor financial condition of their imaging division, but I don’t think that’s the answer you were looking for. 🙂
Forgive me if I sound cynical, but when I start hearing “tweaked” and “Olympus” in the same sentence, I immediately beging thiking of how they’ve made some minor modifcation to improve one small aspect of a camera’s performance, spending as little $$$ on R&D as possible.
People extol the virutes of the E-5’s image quality, all the while forgetting that Olympus was just bringing the E-3 up to the level of the E-PL1, complete with art filters and (cough, cough) 720p video! Woo hoo! Want an E-5 IQ at a bargain price? Get one of those $399 E-PL1’s that are being cleared out at all the big retailers.
Now, Olympus owners will soon find themselves in the same boat as they were a few months ago: the smallest, cheapest Pen in the Olympus line-up will out-perform their flagship in regards to image quality, and quite possibly focus speed! I’m sensing E-5 sales will fall off a cliff come this July.
It seems Olympus is engaged in an excercise to see how often they can change the name and styling of their basic product (the E-P1) before anyone really notices that not much has really changed.
Olympius
What’s wrong with you with all these negativity in all your post, sad.
Hmmm… Have you used an E-5?
Increasing readout speed usually results in more readout noise, which could be a problem. If they simultaneously increase speed and reduce noise, that would be a neat trick. A more sensitive photosite would be a good thing, as Panasonic hasn’t been particularly good in that field.
I’m looking forward to seeing the final product. If I’m lucky, I might even be able to afford one ;-).
This is right, see what the video specs are as that will give some clues. They are already saying dual pipeline so?
bla bla bla
ihr seid üble Nörgler, ich kann dieses negative Gelaber nicht mehr hören. Und dazu sind die meisten hier wahrscheinlich nicht in der Lage gute Bilder zu machen, egal welche Kamera OLY veröffentlicht.
Spielt Golf oder so …
The E-5 has relatively poor DR as it is, so matching that with a new sensor seems like a waste of time. The current crop of APS-C sensors have taken a huge step forward in high-ISO and DR. I had been hearing that the new sensor would be a bigger step forward than the E-5.
IF Olympus is not competing in the MP race, then what race are they competing in? Apparently Olympus is not competing in the MP race, the DR race, or the high ISO race.
Well, Nikon anywas. The NEX-5 is really pretty mediocre according to DxO.
Who exactly is making the sensor for Olympus?
As far as I know Pansonic are still making the sensors, but Olympus is designing/tweaking them.
I think “new” sensor E-PL3 E-P3.. is same sensor E-30,E-620,E-5 an all pen but with Truepic VI, better ISO and better RD i think emulated by proccessor.
In dxomark see the results.
The 45mm is not cheap and it’s definitely not fast for a portrait lens. In dof terms, which is what’s most important for a portrait lens, the best case scenario (assuming it will be useful at f1.8) is that it’s the equivalent of f3.6 full frame. That’s not much of a portrait lens.
I’m also worried that they compare it to the E-5, as good as the E-5 itself is as a product, they should look forward now, unders-speccing the pens in order
to not cannibalize E-5 sales would be the dumbest they can do right now..
I say the success of those new products will be judged on the sensor, unimportant How cool all the rest is, I don’t care about resolution either 12 mp is fine
But the QUALITY must be there, the sensor must be at least equal to the actual
Sony state of the art sensor found in the pentax k5, otherwise goodnight!
I say it again, My MUSTS for the E-P3 are:
Finally a competitive Sensor (no, not even the E-5 one is good enough, neither is the GH2 one btw) at least K5 quality.. even at a premium price I don’t care
1/8000 shutter speed
clean iso at least up to 1600, even better, up to 3200
MUCH better dynamic range than any actual 4/3 sensored camera
2 real dials (ricoh grd or high-end srl like…)
Even 12 mpx is fine, as long as it’s quality mpx..see D700 for example..
Also autofocus need to be ‘bitier’ than on the E-P2
One of the most important things: and the operation, response time need to be faster/lagless (e-5 like or faster)
I just hope Olympus gets the sensor right this time…
I really love hearing people that aren’t in tbe publishing or document content development industries talk about dpi and print sizes… 12MP is way more than enough. Hell, 2MP is more than enough. You people DO know that your 60″ HD TV is only 2MP, right? The important thing is the overall quality of the image. If your images are shot in a studio, with studio lighting, then pretty much any modern digital camera will make acceptable output. If you are shooting sports then you’ll need Canikon, no question. If you want family snapshots, a focus speed good enough to capture kids is important. You buy the right tool for the right job.
I like small cameras with low-distortion lenses, and noise doesn’t bother me that much. Poor focus bothers me. Having to compose with the rear LCD bothers me. Big penis midlife crisis cams bother me. So, if the new Olys have great AF and no banding I can live with that.
Hey Dana, I couldn’t have said it better.
Most here never use their camera’s to the fullest anyway.
The bitching at Olympus for it’s small size low MP sensor is absolutely rediculous. I still make use of the lowly E-1 allthough after getting E-5 it doesn’t see much use. But with the E-1 I could allready make huge prints of my work. I have sold 90x120cm prints that look terrific. The E-5 is 12MP and is even better.
It’s pathetic that most complain about this, who will never even print that large. Also I agree exactly with what you say about people who buy huge LCD/LED TV’s that have less resolution than my first digital camera I bought, the Fuji 6900, claiming they see the difference between camera A or B on those 2MP (1920×1080) displays.
Todays camera’s have more than sufficient resolution and DR to be able to even sell huge posters of them. It’s the photographer that is the limiting factor.
Very sensible.
It’s funny that so many people are stuck arguing about the sensor when the quality of most of their pictures depends mostly on other factors…
then, the best option is to stay with the camera we have for life and not buy any new model or wait for news as do the rest?
if I pay for a new camera I hope you have new things to be better than the previous one, otherwise do not buy any new camera.
But are you looking only at the sensor? Because that’s really the point here.
I know I’m going to upgrade my E-PL1 to an E-P3 and it’s not going to be like that because I need a better sensor primarily. I am looking for faster auto-focus and better usability as those two are issues with my current PEN that’s keeping me from taking a lot of shots in certain situations.
Good news. I didn’t expect anything different. The E-5 image quality is great. Especially the amount of detail at low and medium sensitivities, which is the most important aspect of technical quality for my needs. If DR is improved by half a stop I will be very chuffed.
Dxomark and image comparative samples do not say that.
E5 not bad camera but have same nivel in image quality that E-PL1
What’s with the E5 fixation? It’s okay, but awfully large for what you get out of one. The E5’s IQ to Weight/Mass ratio does NOT add up.
I compared the E5 to a Nikon D7000 and D700 and if I had to hump a camera as big and heavy as one of those things around, it better have some damn good output. I’d bite the proverbial bullet buy a full-frame D700 and be done with it.
And then what? Carry the lenses you’d need for a Nikon? When I grab my E-5, all I need is two lenses: 12-60mm and 50-200mm and I can cover almost any situation in excellency. Does Nikon similar lenses to cover these focal ranges with less weight and less lenses, while offering really fast auto-focus and weather-sealing? Not really…
The E-5 may be heavy and bulky, but looking at the whole camera bag with lenses and stuff, a Four Thirds bag is still much lighter than a Nikon FF bag.
Didn’t Oly had one of the highest resolution in the trade with the PL1? With the PL2 they also achieved a good 3200 ISO.
Everything seems to point that now they are heading towards better DR, perhaps one stop or even more, and even less noise.
With fast chips, besides fast AF perhaps they will have also instant HDR.
Funny how people who are mired in a quantitative, warped approach don’t perceive the constant improvement in photographic qualities Oly made to 4/3.
Let Panny cater to ignorant consumers, or else make them pay as much as they can 🙂
removed
hmmmm…there is a big difference between “designed” or “tweaked”
I think that it makes a lot of sense for Olympus to take an existing design and “tweak” it into something better by concentrating on particular functions. While at the same time working on something better, of course.
Thumbs up for Olympus. 12.1 megapixels is perfect and it means it’s easier to control the ISO noise. Better DR, less ISO noise and faster AF is just what these cameras need.
Wonder if they “tweaked” out the red dots? Well, someone had to bring this up. Right? Wrong?
“we should expect an image quality that is at least on par (but more likely even slightly better) than the current top Olympus E-5 model.”
Haha, you’ve got to feel for recent E5 owners.
funny, i have no clue what you all are talking about. I still have my 1.5 megapixel 🙂 olympus e-100rs. No problem printing a4.
He is 10 years old but in fine shape. I owned 4 others from differend brands, canon, kodac, fujifilm etc and i’m still waiting for one like my old e-100rs.
Not to big, not to small..8 megapixel would be enough it the quality is the same, 10 x optical zoom, and hdmovie mode. Never had a shot with blownout highlites, always right on focus.
https://picasaweb.google.com/kasperke/DeBesteFotoS?authkey=Gv1sRgCNCr9_jZsN3OjwE&feat=directlink
Thats all i’m asking…but still i have not found it.
I have the C-2100UZ, the 2MP sibling to the E-100RS that I bought 9 years ago, and I to have done great prints in the past at the US 8×10″, which is roughly A4 sized. You can’t get too much larger before it starts breaking down, and you have no leeway for cropping, so you need to get the shot you want when shooting.
However, after using the E-1 and successors, I would probably feel constricted if I was limited to 38mm equivalent focal length, as I’ve gotten used to 28mm (and occasionally use 22mm). I recently got the Olympus 14-150mm lens, and it gives me somewhat the same feeling. I can go out, with no camera bag, and shoot a variety of things without having to worry about changing lenses, etc. The size of the E-P2 + 14-150mm is roughly the size of the C-2100UZ when the lens is at wide angle (unlike the C-2100UZ, the lens does go out when zooming).
When it achieves a focus lock, the C-2100UZ is on the money, but it can be slow at focusing if there isn’t enough contrast. I picked up the SP-550UZ a few years ago, and I have much more problems focusing with that camera.
i owned the e-100rs too but i can’t share your positive experience regarding large prints using either printer or lab service. after i switched in 2004 to a Canon EOS D2000 (2 mp) I was finally satisfied with digital capturing & the prints.
I think Olympus has managed to reduce even more the thickness of the AA filter and managed with TruePIC VI to avoid moire so they will probably will be extracting more detail from a 12 MP sensor. This resolution is plenty enough for me. I am expecting better dynamic range at 100 ISO and clean 1600 ISO images. I wonder if they are using a true 12 MP sensor or maybe using a 16 MP or 18 MP sensor and using some pixels at different exposure for broadening the dynamic range. Obviously fourthirds is limited by sensor size using the actual technology but what about using a different idea. I really would like to see the size of a 50mm lens f1.8 attached to a NEX camera. Fourthirds will attract more people for its small, lightweight and new forthcoming super bright lenses. Professionals will continue with FF sensors and APS will disappear. I am pretty sure about this. The key is lens size, avoid the huge vignetting of APS-C lenses and camera size. I don´t know why people continue saying APS-C is the solution. I can´t believe it! Just wait until 30th of June and I think many people will start thinking about the future of MFT.
What Olympus needs is that 12mp sensor from the Nikon D700…now there’s a 12mp sensor you can live with for a nice, long time. If Nikon isn’t going to use it anymore, maybe Sony can give Olympus a good deal. 🙂
But I don’t think we are going to get even 1/2 of that thing’s performance. Or even that of the 16mp sensor of the D7000.
Shoot, I’d even settle for performance like that of the 12mp sensor in the Nikon D90.
So far Olympus has been a long, long way away from all of those.
But Panasonic did come close–very close–with the GH1 sensor.
Olympius
if Panasonic’s GH1 came close, wouldn’t it be a more obvious choice then the d700/7000/90 you are dreaming about? I mean, just buy a GH1 body instead 🙂
Here are some questions for y’all. How many of you shot slide film? How many of you ever use graduated ND filters? How many of you ACTUALLY make books?
Actually, how many of you even make prints? Sigh…
All this infighting and trivia and pixel peeping is worthless. It’s lizard-brain leftover genetic garbage. Meanwhile the oceans are dying and people that shouldn’t have nu-cular whepens have got them.
I just want to take pretty pictures.
>Here are some questions for y’all. How many of you shot slide film? How many of you ever use graduated ND filters? How many of you ACTUALLY make books?
Noooo, don’t say that! You’re seriously risking someone going ‘Well, *I* do these things all the time, so let me tell you all about *my* needs as an artiste…” The internet is the natural habitat of the ‘self-righteousness & self-promotion’ combo. Don’t encourage it!;-)
All sounds good. Now if they would just use multi-aspec sensors in these new cameras like in the Panny GHX series I’d buy one in a second. Come to think of it, why does Panny only have the multi-aspec sensor in in the GH series and the LX-3/LX-5?
Hey guys,
I’m wondering about your critics and diskussion. All you KNOW until today is you don’t know anything !!! 😉
Going back 1-2 years, I recall Olympus got a patent on a method of doing HDR in a single shot. Perhaps it has finally emerged from the labs. If so, it might be Olympus is trying to go into the Fuji territory to deal with wide ranges of DR (though not by having two sensors like Fuji does), and it will let Panasonic and Sony chase higher megapixels.
In March there was discussion of several patents and things Olympus was looking at:
http://www.43rumors.com/ft3-a-few-new-technologies-olympus-is-testing-for-the-future-pro-cameras/
Yes, I was thinking to something akin to the EXR.
BTW it will be interesting to see what format Fuji will choose for the rumored X200 ILS. 4/3 a possibility?
Since the new Oly cameras will have dual core fast processors they could be put to good use to increase DR too.
Fuji reached good results even with a 1.7 sensor.
boring glimpse/tease
http://www.getolympus.com/PENteaser/
and they say oly marketing suck
Wow, new generation of cameras!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have to be fantastic and loaded with new features. XDDDDDDDDDDDD
Well, at least they finally didi give up on XD.
Well, thanks to admin, we ARE the first to know! 🙂
It’s a pity they don’t reveal more in the video.
Admin, any news about general availability of the new PENs?
I have been using Olympus cameras since I was a child. The OM-1, OM4Ti, then Olympus Camedia C-2500L, then the Olympus E-1 and finally the E-P1. I can tell you that 12MP is more than enough compared to reversal film. Although the number of pixels is lower, the resolving power of the lens coupled with the sensor, renders an image with much higher detail. I am building a gallery of some pictures I have taken with analog cameras but also digital and I would like to share with all you. I think MFT is exactly the rebirth of the OM-System and now with a metal lens! Wow!!! I am so excited! Compact, lightweight cameras, prime metal lenses. I think the E-P3 is the OM5-Ti that many of us were waiting when Olympus decided to switch to the E-System. Here is the gallery, hope you like it! I can´t wait to see the E-P3 🙂 Thank you for sharing all these rumors with us 🙂
http://zuiko.smugmug.com/Art/Best-photographs/17484307_stkks5
really excellent photography!
its apperant that you have alot of expertise.
the b/w with the 2 girls is amazing! i’ve read your description of the b/w convention process..havent understood a thing 🙂
i myself use the nik silver efex 2 b/w plugin, i find it to be very effective,
anyway thank you for sharing!
Hi frosti7,
Thank you for your comments. I am a Olympus lover since I was a child. Although I was able to try some Canon and Nikon cameras, they never were at the level of Olympus cameras. Olympus creates outstanding tools for creating images, for using the Zone-System, for loving photography. If you buy an Olympus camera you will never switch to other system. Color in my opinion is their strongest point. They concentrate on the key points of photography, like gradation, color, effective resolution, etc… If you need something to shoot 10 images per second and send the images to a magazine, you aren´t in the right system but if you really need a reliable exposure meter, accurate white balance, reversal film-like color, compactness, outstanding optics, don´t think it twice.
David
Nice gallery. 🙂
Yes, Olympus cameras are well designed, and I thought I was the only one who realized Olympus’s metering is based on Zone System. That’s why it’s a little “under exposed” which is really “properly exposed” based on Zone System. Only if people would try to understand it, they wouldn’t complain about DR as much…. Yes, better DR is always welcome (as well as other technological advancement), but most of the time DR is good enough.
Overall as a system, Olympus is pretty good. Only if people would try to appreciate it.
Anyways, how did you get your film scans to be that sharp? You did a good job with Ektachrome, which I don’t think it’s an easy film to use.
The only way to scan an image tack sharp corner to corner is following these steps:
Nikon LS-4000ED has a very shallow depth of field but on the other hand sharpness is extremelly high. I have tried to use newtonian glass slide but you can see a pattern all over the image I didn´t like. Then I though, why not dividing the image in rows and columns, scanning small portions of the slide and refocusing in all of them? Voila! The image sharpness is exactly the same as a drum scanner!
1. Divide the image in 30-50 cells.
2. Scan all them and don´t forget to set the focus point in the center of the cell.
3. Stitch all of them in Photoshop.
Results are impressive. Digital ICE works even better 🙂
I use Vuescan Professional with a individually measured slide for creating an accurate color profile. Nikon software sucks!
I also use Vuescan, though I am not as proficient as you at it. I am a newbie in term of film photography (though my first experience of film was way back during 1st grade back in the 80’s, doing snapshots). My scanner is a Minolta 5400 (yes it can do Digital ICE), so I don’t know if I could do the same as your Nikon 4000ED. I really don’t know how to built a profile under Vuescan. Last time I tried it, it was a disaster…. I reverted back to default. 😀 My Lightroom’s color profile was done though…. Don’t know if that would help any…. My Photoshop experience is limited… (can stitch macro shots together for extended DoF, but that’s about the most difficult thing I can do with CS5…). Really should learn that thing, though Lightroom is really useful for 90% of my needs, but some stuff still need Photoshop.
Hi David,
Very interesting gallery indeed. I was a Pentax shooter for a long time, playing around with Pentax K1000 and ME super, and later on moved to their digital line. I jumped to E-P1 when it was introduced, later sold my Pentax DSLRs and instead got an E-1 (along my beloved E-P1). I too think Olympus has better well rounded cameras. Lately I’ve bought an Oly 35 RC which is great to shoot, and I’m starting to find my Pentax Super ME a bit uninspiring compared to it.
I’ve not owned Nikon or Canon though, but what I see on the market doesn’t inspire me much.
Hi Reza,
Nice to hear that! E-P1 is a great camera although it has some drawbacks like AF but colors are simply beautiful. Check this out!
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Olympus-E-P1-Digital-Camera-Review-20850/Color.htm
Color accuracy rocks!!! Now check this out.
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-EOS-7D-Digital-Camera-Review-21327/Color.htm
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-II-Digital-Camera-Review-19948/Color.htm
That´s why I am always reporting the same thing. Nobody is able to match Olympus color accuracy. 🙂
On my monitor, it looks like my E-620 is the best in term of color reproduction… interesting…. For non-Olympus camera, to me it’s Sony A-900 that’s the best followed by Nikon D5000. Is that the same on your screen?
Not only nice and beautiful picture, but also meaning.
Problem to day is take time to combe a beautiful picture by meaning.
Beautiful photos 🙂
A real pleasure to watch these images. This is what photography is all about!
The same as you David, I started with an OM-1 then an OM-2 and later an OM4Ti. Now I have The E1 and E3. I have not buy the E5 waiting for a more compact E-P3 with the lenses that this site is anticipating. Let’s see what surprise we’ll have. Great photographs David, congratulations. If you click over my name in this comment you will be directed to my site in Flickr were I have some of my pictures.
Regards
Nice work… 🙂
amazing set! hopefully some day I’ll have something like this to show youngsters 🙂
Thank all of you for your comments. OMG Marcelo immaculate collection! I love them. I love your work.
Exactly the same. I want compact bodies, I don´t really want heavy stuff in my bag. I will only need three lenses. 12mm f2, 25mm f1.4 and 90mm f2 prime lenses.
I really prefer moving forward or backwards instead of using a zoom lens. IMHO people using zoom lenses have forgotten about the lens perspective compression, bokeh, etc…They only adjust the required focal length and that´s all folks! Sometimes is better going a little bit backwards and using more perspective compression for taking a portrait.
David
Thanks David
“I think MFT is exactly the rebirth of the OM-System …
I think the E-P3 is the OM5-Ti that many of us were waiting when Olympus decided to switch to the E-System.”
+1
you think with the release of new models, the price of E-PL2 “down?
Surely, just like E-PL1 prices went down.
Absolute if you use film, so nead we tripod or flash for freeze moment, but now is more easy, by IS and also enhance ISO if we nead.
I have also litte of spec to OM-5Ti, but i hope E-P3 is better. 😀
Hi David, I would love to know which lenses you have used with the ep1 shots. Thanks for the photos!
Hi TR,
I always use the kit 14-42 lens. I bought the adapter for using all my fourthirds lenses but it´s useless. AF is unreliable and very slow.
David
Look at 10 years old 4 megapixel Olympus E-10
http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse10/samples/Colour/001219-1208-46.jpg
http://masters.galleries.dpreview.com.s3.amazonaws.com/86113.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=14Y3MT0G2J4Y72K3ZXR2&Expires=1308675413&Signature=5upG%2b3T%2bNEj1HltmXAscZihLmM0%3d
And 10 years old 3 megapixel Canon.. where is the noise? 🙂
http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/CanonD30/Samples/Smooth/001004-1400-14.jpg
What Do You think guys? Still need more megapixels? 🙂
great examples!! Maybe the new Oly e-p camera will bring that back
And the is also not 4/3 but 2/3 sensor.(crop factor x4)
Nice to see. I still use a 4.1mp D2h for all my work.
Admin- how sure are you this is a sensor designed by Olympus? It could be, but sounds like a brand new sensor design will probably debut in the pro pen. It all sounds like a tweaked Panasonic sensor. I hope there’s no banding as the iso climbs. Maybe same new tech of the g3 sensor at 12 mp.
Also the image quality I expect it to be better than the e-5. The e-5 sensor is a bottling in the tooth by now and I think Olympus does need a new sensor to stay competitive.
Oh it’s you again. Thought I could smell eau de troll. Things too quiet on the four thirds forum? You could always go and use your K5.
You née to grow up. I am actually interested on this camera. Too bad people don’t have to do like you say. Must be frustrating for you
Don’t feed it 😉
With Olympus’ quantities I think that they really need to put any sensor/processor pairing in all of their cameras in order to get the quantities up and the costs per unit down.
They were never the same as Panasonic sensors, Panasonic just did the fabs. Thats why the megapixels were always different.
I am also skeptical of this being a new 12mp sensor. Actually, i highly doubt it is a new 12mp sensor. Panasonic wouldn’t create a brand new sensor and lower the megapixel count when they have already transitioned to 16 and 18mp sensors. And don’t believe the BS about this being a new sensor designed by Olympus. Olympus does not have sensor design nor production capability, so they must rely on Panasonic. Whatever Panasonic gives them is whatever they have to sell.
Just more of the same from Olympus, using the same old 12mp Panny sensor, but with another year of development in image processing technology to process away the noise. The improved DR will likely come from programming the camera to target a lower exposure to preserve the highlights and having the improved NR algorithms deal with the shadow noise.
BTW, not that this validates my hypothesis, but Thom Hogan says it is the same sensor with an improved imaging ASIC on his website. If i am wrong, at least i’m in good company 😉
I see too many times, people are having difficulties to understand the semiconductor industry. You don’t need to have processing facilities, in order to design integrated circuits like sensors here. However, image sensors are different from common CMOS digital IC’s.
But, you need design experience with the target foundry and the specific process steps for the image sensor. All semiconductor foundries provides to various extent design consultancy. Olympus part in the design flow can be anywhere from the concept phase to the final tape out.
Why not focus more on the new image sensor specification, rather than to what extent Olympus participated in all processing steps.
I agree. What we really care about is what the sensor is capable of. But if Olympus (or is it actually the rumor mill over-hyping as usual) chooses to make promotional statements claiming that they designed their own completely new 12mp sensor, that’s bull and misleading.
“I am also skeptical of this being a new 12mp sensor. Actually, i highly doubt it is a new 12mp sensor.”
depends where you think a sensor begins and ends. For E5 they already changed the cfa and, anti-aliasing filter, and the inboard wiring to enable video. If they have moved to dual processing that will alter the internal wiring again.
They do not even require their own facility to accomplish this
“depends where you think a sensor begins and ends. For E5 they already changed the cfa and, anti-aliasing filter” […]
The CFA and LPF are no more part of the sensor than demosaicing is part of the sensor.
“Olympus does not have sensor design capability”
And you know this, how?
“And you know this, how?”
It’s generally accepted that only 4 camera mfrs have that capability: Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, and Canon. Fuji and Kodak have that capability too, but they’re bit players at best. Who else? Maybe Nikon? You tell me.
But Olympus? That’s not their thing. They can design lenses, microscopes, endoscopes, etc., but not semiconductors.
Everyone relies on 3rd party providers for various components in a camera. e.g, Sony for LCD screens, Tessera for the image processing and face recognition, Tamron for the lenses, Sanyo for assembly, etc.
And Olympus relies on others for their sensors (amongst other things). It was Kodak at first, now it’s Panasonic. There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s just how it is…
Seems like the only people that want more DR, mp and high ISO are people that dont know what they are doing.
so a person with a p&s knows more what his doing then a professional photographer with a 1D?
It doesnt matter what kind of camera you have. If you dont know what your doing then you dont know. I can take the same pic with a 1d or e1. I have both cameras and If you know what your doing you can get the results your after. What do people think, nobody could take a decent pic before the 5dm2 came out bs. Some of my fav images were take with my e1. do i enjoy the e5 more? yes but only because of focus and the speed of the camera. Image quality shouldnt be an issue with todays cameras. Your not going to see a big difference between 12 or 24 mp
no one said that you have to own a dslr to take great picture, i’m reffering to the fact that you said “the only people that want more DR, mp and high ISO are people that dont know what they are doing”
so my original question still stands
Cool, I will buy the E-P3 for sure.
you can have a ps and know what your doing and you can have a 1d and not know what your doing so I dont understand you statement
Admin: “Overall I am very happy with the steps Olympus made with the new PEN’s. Of course there is still room for improvement. But guys, they are finally going in the right direction or not?”
Yes, they do! Impressive Olympus-Innovations which will hit the mark!
1. Looking at the most appreciated photos created since 1850 – very rarely sharpness, DR nor ISO sensitivity is that made them famous!
2. I don not love Olympus cameras nor any machine.
3. A camare is a picture taking machine, it is up to the operator of it to create good or bad photography.
4. As a picture taking machine the E-P1 is is some ways nice to work with. But inintentional chage of settings is very annoying. And to create good photography composition is extremely important. Just a LCD is not enough!
5.The Olympus lenses for m4/3 so far are very average. The Panasonic 20mm is good, but not as good as the Zeiss 50mm, Leica 90mm or the Voigtländer 35mm that I own. – Just whish they had been auto-focus. Now we get prime lenses from Panasonic and Olympus. It remains to be seen if they live up to the hype!?
6. I like the m4/3 concept a lot and am willing to compromize image quality a bit. I then need tp get a camera that meets my requirements (G3,GH2) -and purchase 3 lenses. That will be as expensive as switching to another system. Samsung? (excellent usability), Pentax Q (they sure know about making small, high performing lenses) Sony’s nex(t) banger? (can they manufacture small HQ lenses? – not yet)
The are many potential photographers there, they need something to unlock their creativity and start painting with light! One of the major drawbacks in my opinion is that if you don´t get what you see, you won´t be interested in photography, at least when you are a beginner. I bought a Panasonic LX5 for my wife when Olympus hadn´t released the XZ-1 yet and this is what I was talking the other day, no matter how you configure your camera, Panasonic color sucks!!! I have been creating a nice color profile for the LX5 but I still haven´t finished it yet, I don´t have the right tools but I am getting closer. Now my wife is able to load all her pictures in Lightroom and apply the color profile I created. Check out the difference between what Venus Engine is outputting and the real color.
Panasonic real color: http://zuiko.smugmug.com/photos/i-dthtxnw/0/L/i-dthtxnw-L.jpg
Lightroom color profile: http://zuiko.smugmug.com/photos/i-6HRhV8v/0/L/i-6HRhV8v-L.jpg
Believe me, if you don´t have the right tool, you won´t feel the real experience taking photographs.
I am really looking forward to seeing the new TRUEPIC VI engine 🙂
David
I wish someone would make an OLYMPUS color profile for Lightroom/ACR
+100
I’d also like to see some lens profiles for Oly MFTs in Camera Raw and LR. Whats the deal with that?!
UPDATE:
I’ve been searching dpreview’s forum and found a very nice Profile by huelight, if someone wants- pm me
I’m not sure how to PM you…. Though I am interested in that also. Right now, I am porting important photos that really need Olympus color directly into Olympus Viewer, save as EXIF-TIF (by the way, you can completely kick out that stupid anti-alias filter and completely unleash the potential of your Olympus lenses within Viewer) then port back to Lightroom. That way I retained that nice Olympus color and still use Lightroom for nice photo filing and other work flow.
just click on my username to pm me.
BTW – would the olympus raw converter that your talking about would work on panasonic raw files? how can i install it?
The software is free for sure, but I am not sure it’ll work with Panasonic RAW file…. You can try to save your photos in EXIF-TIFF and export to Viewer and see if it’ll work…. Probably too much work if you don’t port ORF (Olympus RAW Format) directly. I didn’t realize you are not using Olympus. Olympus’s color really is better like everyone says (even competitors agree, though I admit Olympus’s color is slightly on the warmer side to my eyes, but most people like that color. It’s not grossly warm, but it’s not neutral). I don’t speak for something I only read over the Internet, I actually have experience with them (I owned G1 briefly).
I clicked on your name, but there is no PM function! Maybe it’s not for non-registered users?
Hi frosti7,
It´s certainly very difficult to create a color profile for Lightroom, if you really want to render colors in the same way as Olympus does. First you should be able to calibrate the lightness (greys) and colors separately. It´s something similar to LAB color space. TruePIC engine is really powerful because it calibrates both worlds separately. They also don´t use 3D LUT tables found in ICC profiles because this technique produces posterization and color shifts. Although Lightroom color correction modifies color very smoothly, it doesn´t have the versatility of the ICC profiles. You can´t alter specific colors, and if you modify oranges, yellows and reds are affected. I guess Olympus is able to modify color in a different way. In my opinion they are able to modify color wavelengths with an algorithm or something like that. I don´t really know it, but believe me that color correction is a really hard task 🙂
I second that. I once spent 6 hours trying to create lightroom profiles that would render RAW files as Olympus Jpeg engine does. You can get one picture close to its Olympus JPEG rendering by fine tweaking, but the next image will look totally different using that tweaked profile.
I finally gave up on that effort and started shooting JPEG+RAW. But nowadays I’m back to JPEG only. I’ve learned if I set the WB (mostly) and exposure (less important) correct at shooting time, the JPEG will look great anyway, and it will withstand some minor tweaking in lightroom too.
What by color profil to Astia, so i can look is the to few Provia and Velvia for ACR.
Also first Sensiva generasion is interesting to so give life to flat sunrise, and not very yellow.
I don’t quite understand you Inge-M…, as always…. Are you trying to say you want color profile that will emulate Astia, Provia, and Velvia (and also Sensia)? If so, I think I want them too. I think you can download Velvia preset somewhere. I need Provia 100F though, which is my favorite slide film.
I use X-rite Color Checker. It works really well with Lightrom. And yes, there is a clear difference in color rendition Olympus – Panasonic. Also for Olympus users, as mentioned below by cL, conversion to exif-Tif produces excellent file quality
The Panny Venus engine is generally recognized to output inferior JPEGs to Olympus. However, looking at the image based on your LR color profile, it looks a bit cool with a slight magenta bias to it (i.e., the skin looks a bit sunburned / purplish). Of course, the Panny image looks dark, murky, and yellowish, but perhaps a warmer profile with a slight tweak to have less magenta more green might be more pleasing (albeit maybe less accurate)?
Hi e_dawg,
I know what you mean but her color skin is a little bit redish. I am just concentrating on color matching, then I´ll optimize skin colors. Lightroom color correcting tool isn´t very powerful but thank you for your comments. Greatly appreciated.
David – if this was a comment to what I write above: I have 50 years experience in photography 🙂
Cameras from Minolta, Olympus, Contax, Leica, Ricoh, Nikon to mention some. The best were the Contaxes (usability + image quality). People talk often about OM-1, but the Contax 138Q was far better in every aspect! The Contax G1 AF rangefinder with it amazing lenses is definatelt the benchmark I use vs upcomming mirrorless cameras!
Hi Per,
What about price? How much does a Carl Zeiss lens cost? I cannot say CONTAX cameras aren´t good but everything must be taken into account.
Anyway, check this out 🙂
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/olympusom1n2/om1/index.htm
David
Hi Inge-M,
What´s the point of applying an Astia color profile to a color image that has been already color corrected? For instance: Use an Olympus E-1 camera to capture an scene and then take the same picture with a Canon 5D. Both of them render colors really different. Now apply an Astia color profile. Do you think it will be rendered like an Astia slide? 🙂
There is also something important. E-1 has a different dynamic range compared to Canon 5D. Astia has an specific exposure latitude so …Do you get it?
Some people use Nik software for applying profiles, so I highly recommend loading images as linear as possible and then apply these profiles to the images. What´s the point of loading an image with mid-contrast curve in Lightroom and then applying a profile with high contrast curve with Nik software?
Hei David Irisarri
I look, that is color profil so give Provia and Velvia color example for Lightroom.
Yes the is intention when a color profil is make, that it to make color up to film, but big reason for color profils is difference camera.
Have you guys noticed the replies on the Olympus rumors? Still incredible to me the level of interest and discussion their products bring on.
Good or bad tom you, they are polarizing for some reason. I think it’s because they are a wildcard in the market that has so much photographic heritage and potential but they don’t quite live up to it.
They really make good quality stuff. Not quite the best but you can really get some good stuff with it.
Deep down I think a lot of people would like to see them knock one out of the park. if they could only put that pesky viewfinder in the body they might be on to something soon.
I agree that Olympus rumors always generate alot of discussion. Compare that to some other company rumor sites.
It seems that a lot of people like Olympus and their heritage and even though we are critical at times we hope they come out with a great product. They are a small imaging company without the budgets of Panasonic and Canon, and have usually been very innovative. Perhaps its because they are small that they can innovate but on the downside it also means they can be a bit slower at updating and getting the products out for own tastes. That doesnt excuse some bad product decisions they have made and I still think the Pen line needs some better strategy.
Totally agree that they need a viewfinder in a body very quickly.
redesigned or tweaked sensor – it beter be redesigned,
Tweaking refers to fine-tuning or adjusting to get the best results with the existing structure.
olympus colour is good imo, but, and i say this as an oly fanboy, completely overrated! any camera on the market can mimic the look of olympus jpg, it’s a jpg after all. it’s one of the ‘repeated’ last myths in the oly fanboy campbut let’s face it nikon and canon allow you also to create any look or colour profile you want (with picture styles/customization)sony has great jpg too out of cam.
agreed that panasonic raw are a little ‘flatter’, but they have great latitude in post processing, much better than olympus raws.
what made the E-1 so great imo was the ‘flat’ colour output but unbelievable colour latitide, better than any esystem body until today.
Always a struggle to do as you suggest, colour is strongly dependent on both the cfa array and its transparency. It is no secret that Canon in particular have more translucent cfa which helps in high ISO noise but condemns low ISO colour.
Yes you can modify the files but there is no guarantee that consistent colour acuity can be maintained, and done so in a timely manner. Picture styles are a great assistance but do not answer more than a few productivity claims.
They still tend to washed out reds and cyan skies, straightening that mess out costs time in post production, that’s how it is. (this is the same for earlier Canon SLRs compared with later Canon SLRs, earlier SLRs do not have the same problem)
As for E1, most CCD sensors produce nicer color than CMOS based sensors. This is demonstrated well by Leica’s M9.
I agree partly on the CCD quote about nicer color, rather than the CCD itself I think the size of photons
Are of bigger importance.. so I think it’s wise from Olympus to stay at ’12 but good’ megapixels..
Other than that I don’t agree about the cyan skies etc. with other brands, guys do you actually use the cameras or do you just read the forums? For example Nikons, just modify the image parameters on you’re image preset and you’re there ‘olympus-blue’, also the factory settings are not bad at all, just different to what you might be used from your Olympus. I find it a bigger mess to deal with blown out shadows or highlights of 4/3 cameras, for weddings with lots of changing and difficult lightning conditions, it can drive you nuts.
Also the lack of ‘yet’ Fast reliable autofocus can drive you even more nuts, I shot last wedding with a (calibrated) E-5 + 14-35, parallel (fortunately) I shot the D700 with some prime lenses, the sluggish AF of the
E-5 drove me nuts, the D700 gave me consistent high keeper rate, beautiful colour and smooth files the E-5 didn’t even come close. I’m also not sure if the hi-iso performance of a D700 condemns low iso colour as you mention, not at all actually more the opposite… moiré and shadow noise are unknown to the D700.
Despite all ‘fanboyism’ on this forum, yes I like Olympus too, believe me I have tons of Oly cameras and I won’t part with them, but we have also to admit the shortcomings, in this regard the E-5 + 14-35 is a huge disappointment, despite the stellar resolution and great versatility…
I will agree the 14-35 is slow focusing in low light. I hardly ever use it at weddings unless I am outside but we shoot with teams at weddings. we use e-5’s 7d’s and 1d m3 and so far the e-5’s give better color and a higher keeper rate. More infocus pictures etc. I have never shot with Nikon maybe its better idk
Shoot it with the 12-60. Great focus speed.
That is what I use when I can risk focus, like the leaving shot but I do like the ability to shoot at 2.0 at the reception